# Phlosphr, you are a fucking idiot (re: home birth) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 17, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786 "2011-06-17T02:43:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/241 "2011-06-18T15:09:06Z")
I guess I just don’t get when having a baby became a “birthing process” and everything from the lighting to the attendants became this big, scary, mystical thing. Your body knows what to do, it’s a biological process. You might need some medical help or not, so a doctor is a good thing to have around. Making it all about the parents and bogus research into bonding hormones and all of that just strikes me as a legacy of the Me Generation - so much bullshit that keeps the spotlight on ME ME ME! For fuck’s sake people - do you have any idea what your whining about someone being mean to you and causing you emotional trauma would sound like to a birthing mother 200 years ago? ---
**Author:** ![lorene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/65b543/32.png) [@lorene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lorene)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/242 "2011-06-18T15:35:23Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > I guess I just don’t get when having a baby became a “birthing process” and everything from the lighting to the attendants became this big, scary, mystical thing. > > Your body knows what to do, it’s a biological process. You might need some medical help or not, so a doctor is a good thing to have around. > > Making it all about the parents and bogus research into bonding hormones and all of that just strikes me as a legacy of the Me Generation - so much bullshit that keeps the spotlight on ME ME ME! > > For fuck’s sake people - do you have any idea what your whining about someone being mean to you and causing you emotional trauma would sound like to a birthing mother 200 years ago? Sounds like someone needs to [address her unhealed issues around birth](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13909194&postcount=145) (from the linked article). 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/243 "2011-06-18T15:39:34Z")
In response to Indygrrl’s post, the thing that irks me about the natural childbirth movement is that I actually think it’s very UNfeminist. There are a lot of scare tactics used to get women to go without pain meds, all given in very general terms like “hormones promote bonding” (How does that work? Is there any evidence there’s greater bonding after natural childbirth?) or “side effects to the baby” (What are they? Are they long-term? Do we see any measurable difference at all between children or adults whose mothers had pain relief and those who didn’t?) Much of it seems like theoretical nonsense that is designed to scare women into experiencing a large amount of pain for no quantifiable reason. The reason I find this unfeminist is because I can’t think of a single physical trauma men go through where they would be expected not to get pain relief. “Passing a kidney stone? Just breathe the right way and relax, you’ll get through it! You can do it, papa!” And not only are women expected to endure the pain, but then they are told it’s their fault if the pain is intolerable. Even in NAF’s birth story, the doula thought his wife’s excruciating pain was due to her “fighting the contractions” instead of relaxing properly. Turns out, no, she was in a bad state and people who were supposed to be supporting her were blaming her for it. That’s a load of crap, in my opinion, and it’s where the natural childbirth advocates have lost me. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/244 "2011-06-18T15:46:22Z")
Oh, I left something out. Of course, a mother’s birth experience matters. No one wants to go through any kind of a traumatic medical experience. But it’s my belief that telling women that they’ve lost these unproven “benefits” is extremely detrimental to the mental and emotional healing process. It does not help to have guilt that you are going to have trouble bonding with your baby now (especially when there’s no reason to believe that you will) or that if you have trouble nursing that you caused it through choosing to have pain relief (especially when that’s more than likely not the reason for it). There’s enough guilt placed on mothers for a whole lot of stuff in this world, and it makes me angry when people pile it on unnecessarily. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/245 "2011-06-18T15:55:36Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > The reason I find this unfeminist is because I can’t think of a single physical trauma men go through where they would be expected not to get pain relief. Not to disagree with the general thrust of **Sarahfeena** ’s remarks, but there _is_ a lot of cultural and sometimes direct economic pressure on men to accept and tolerate and work through pain. For example, there’s not much room in the construction industry for nursing injuries. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/246 "2011-06-18T16:00:23Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Not to disagree with the general thrust of **Sarahfeena** ’s remarks, but there _is_ a lot of cultural and sometimes direct economic pressure on men to accept and tolerate and work through pain. For example, there’s not much room in the construction industry for nursing injuries. That’s a fair point, but it wouldn’t happen in a hospital. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/247 "2011-06-18T16:13:25Z")
I think all parenting discussions should just be offered as a poll with the two alternatives of JUDGMENTAL and DEFENSIVE and everyone can just click which one they are on that particular issue – there is no need for a third option. ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/248 "2011-06-18T16:27:48Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > So says the well-off American who doesn’t have to go back to Nigeria and risk having a uterine rupture - a medical emergency that can be fatal even in the most modern, fully equipped hospitable with doctor standing by in the same room for emergency surgery. > > It’s not like Nigeria is known for readily available birth control, or is a rape-free zone, or women there aren’t coerced into bearing children. > > If she really has to go back to Nigeria then performing a c-section on her today to save the baby can condemn her to death a few years down the line - leaving her children orphaned. Yeah, great choice. Granted, there isn’t really a _good_ choice there, but given that, why not let her make the decision? > > Oh, wait - she made a decision. Then the doctors decided she was wrong and made a different decision that might, after she goes home, kill her. Great going, guys. Yeah, great move if you live in a first world country but it sucks if you’re the woman who has to go back and live in the third world. The woman was actually making a _rational_ decision for her circumstances, but you know, fuck her, she’s just a woman hopped up on hormones and isn’t making the decision YOU would, sitting in your first world country with easy access to modern medicine so she’s crazy, right? First of all, why would the chances of uterine rupture be so much higher in Nigeria than in the US? My wife did a VBAC for our second child and it doesn’t seem like it would matter if she were giving birth on the moon or on Nigeria, if she were going to rupture, it was going to happen. The only possibility I can think of is that there are certain positions of the baby which can put more pressure on the scar tissue and cause a rupture, but intuitively I don’t think the odds would skyrocket or anything. What is entirely more likely is that, in the case of a uterine rupture, the chances of serious complications or even death would be much greater in Nigeria. No arguments here on that point. But considering the odds of rupture are still pretty low even for VBAC (less than 1%. [Cite.](http://www.aafp.org/afp/2002/0901/p823.html)), the decision to save the baby currently being born far outweighs the potential future risk to mother/child IF she gets pregnant again AND if she has a uterine rupture. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/249 "2011-06-18T16:33:56Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > Look here, asshole. You know goddamned well that my wife nearly died from complications to her C-section. You also know goddamned well that your nephew was taken from us and kept in another room for two days. Either you know all these things, but you are still taking the ignorant blowhard route, or you are so goddamned selfish that you don’t even know things you were told involving direct family. I was talking about births that did not involve any complications. Chill out. The kind of interventons that happened in your case are not what the home birthers are bitching about. If anything, your experience supposrt my contention that deliveries are better done in a hospital. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/250 "2011-06-18T16:35:47Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Meh. I guess I’m more bothered than you by people taking risks with their kids’ lives for their own comfort and in search of a mystical spiritual experience. But feel free to let your mileage vary. Some people feel like children have to be given the most possible protection, others feel that doing so detracts from the life of the child and creates a disconnect between the child and the natural surroundings that a child was meant to have. Some people want padded play parks, others want their children to be able to play in natural settings and swim in lakes. Giving birth at home has a much different atmosphere then a cold clinical hospital setting. Yes it may carry more risk, but please accept that some feel that it is better for their child to be in their home and placed in the arms of the loving parents without the Dr’s poking and prodding the child. Also please accept that some people believe that the child is a living human at conception and will remember time of birth and in the womb on a subconscious level and that will effect their life and development. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/251 "2011-06-18T16:37:45Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > The reason I find this unfeminist is because I can’t think of a single physical trauma men go through where they would be expected not to get pain relief. “Passing a kidney stone? Just breathe the right way and relax, you’ll get through it! You can do it, papa!” I wonder, and there probably is a study, if men and women get treated differently regarding pain relief for the same problems. It triggers because you said kidney stones. I have a male friend who is prone to kidney stones - and his medicine cabinet is a narcotic addicts idea of heaven. I have a female friend who just passed a kidney stone, and I said “oh, at least they give you the good drugs” and she got Tylenol-3 and told “this will be painful.” Now, it could have just been a difference in doctors, but I kind of wonder… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/252 "2011-06-18T16:38:17Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > My question is, when you guys were growing up, did **Dio** ever say, “My fist is my cite!” while punching you in the face? Because that wouldn’t surprise me in the least. I used to make him eat snow. He’s still bitter. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/253 "2011-06-18T16:51:24Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I used to make him eat snow. He’s still bitter. I’m guessing yellow snow. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/254 "2011-06-18T16:53:34Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > I wonder, and there probably is a study, if men and women get treated differently regarding pain relief for the same problems. It triggers because you said kidney stones. I have a male friend who is prone to kidney stones - and his medicine cabinet is a narcotic addicts idea of heaven. I have a female friend who just passed a kidney stone, and I said “oh, at least they give you the good drugs” and she got Tylenol-3 and told “this will be painful.” Now, it could have just been a difference in doctors, but I kind of wonder… Interesting question. It wouldn’t surprise me if men were more outspoken about their needs than women. I think we have a tendency not to ask for things, to think we should be able to deal with issues. For that matter, maybe that’s because we go through childbirth! ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/255 "2011-06-18T16:55:18Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Also please accept that some people believe that the child is a living human at conception and will remember time of birth and in the womb on a subconscious level and that will effect their life and development. I believe that the child is a living human at the time of conception. But the rest of that sentence is a bunch of claptrap. Sorry for the serial posting, I lost my mouse and multi-quoting is super awkward for me on this damn trackpad. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/256 "2011-06-18T16:57:56Z")
You know a famous person who was born by natural childbirth? AS famous person who was born in _Austria_… ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/257 "2011-06-18T17:00:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I was talking about births that did not involve any complications. Chill out. The kind of interventons that happened in your case are not what the home birthers are bitching about. If anything, your experience supposrt my contention that deliveries are better done in a hospital. WhyNot suggested that rushing to do a c-section, resulting in complications to the mother, and separation of the baby from the mother were possibilities of hospital delivery. You said those concerns “sound[ed] like a bunch of contrived, mostly imaginary grievances, none of which are very important” and “mostly paranoid nonsense.” That’s what were talking about. That’s what I was talking about, anyway. But now I realize you were only talking about those cases where those things don’t happen, and I’m pretty sure you’re right. I guess next time we’ll have to be clearer in our birth plan, let the doctor know we want a c section without complications. We must have checked the wrong box on the form. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/258 "2011-06-18T17:20:04Z")
What I was calling paranoid was the stuff like somebody giving the baby formula, “rough towels,” 'bright lights," _unnecessary_ C-sections, nurses wielding fist fulls of needles like Freddy Kruger, etc. I was not referring to _emergency_ inteventions, but the the irrational fear of being forced to accept drugs or surgery without cause, or simply trivial fears about what kind of towel the baby gets dried with. You are misunderstanding me. In your case the surgery was _necessary_. I never said that _necessary_ C-sections or separations from the baby don’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/259 "2011-06-18T17:21:12Z")
You two crack me up. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/260 "2011-06-18T17:57:04Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > First of all, why would the chances of uterine rupture be so much higher in Nigeria than in the US? A post-cesarean woman in the US is FAR more likely to have a scheduled c-section with subsequent births. A post-cesarean woman in the US is FAR more likely to be under the care of any sort of trained health care provider who _might_ spot early indications of either high risk for rupture or the first actual signs of a rupture. It’s a heck of a lot easier to get ultrasound screening to asses the thickness and soundness of the uterine scar in the US than in Nigeria. Basically, in the US (and other, even more medically enlightened countries) it’s possible to screen a post-cesarean woman for risk factors for uterine rupture and, if appropriate, even surgically deliver a subsequent child a bit early to avoid such a rupture. Much less likely to happy in Nigeria. Not to mention, of course, that a woman is more likely to _survive_ a uterine rupture in the industrialized world. Yes, I’m sure Nigeria has competent doctors and in major urban centers this might not be too dissimilar from many places in the US, but the fact is that Nigerians in Nigeria have far less access to medical care than people in the US. Thus, the risk to a post-cesarean woman in Nigeria is higher than it would be if she remained in the US. > [@](#): > > My wife did a VBAC for our second child and it doesn’t seem like it would matter if she were giving birth on the moon or on Nigeria, if she were going to rupture, it was going to happen. Was your wife seen by an OB/GYN throughout her pregnancy? Was a medical history taken while she was being considered for VBAC? Did she undergo ultrasound screening? Was she monitored closely during the pregnancy? Did she have the VBAC in a hospital setting? If the uterine scar is thin or starts to dehiscence it is possible to avoid a rupture via surgery but that’s something a layperson is probably not going to spot until it’s too late. > [@](#): > > What is entirely more likely is that, in the case of a uterine rupture, the chances of serious complications or even death would be much greater in Nigeria. No arguments here on that point. Yes, quite. > [@](#): > > But considering the odds of rupture are still pretty low even for VBAC (less than 1%. [Cite.](http://www.aafp.org/afp/2002/0901/p823.html)), the decision to save the baby currently being born far outweighs the potential future risk to mother/child IF she gets pregnant again AND if she has a uterine rupture. First of all, those odds are for _first world nations_, not places like Nigeria. Now, if she’s a _wealthy and powerful_ Nigerian woman perhaps access to care is not an issue, but it sure is for the _average_ Nigerian woman, which is what I’m assume we’re talking about here. In a lot of places in Nigeria there aren’t OB/GYN’s on call, just the village midwife who may or may not have any formal training, the emergency facilities are inadequate to non-existent, and transport to fully equipped ER’s and OR’s may likewise be completely unavailable. You’re essentially looking at a home birth VBAC, and on top of that, a home birth with no immediate access to emergency care. Do you _still_ think the risk is less? Or even acceptable? In other words, the US and Nigeria are not comparable. The doctors did not listen to her concerns, or consider her reasons for refusing medical treatment which, supposedly, competent adults are supposed to be able to do in the US. No, no, saving the baby now was more important than putting her at risk in the future and leaving surviving children orphaned in a third world country. Again, much easier for people who are NOT getting their belly cut open to make such decisions, particularly when the decision makers won’t have to live with the consequences of that decision in the future. Justice would be at least _offering_ her a subsequent surgical sterilization to alleviate her fears of future pregnancy, although it wouldn’t surprise me if she was reluctant to undergo the knife again. The people who sliced her open won’t have to worry about locating decent pre-natal care in a third-world nation, or finding someone to asses a high-risk pregnancy, or having any access at all to an equipped hospital just to be on the safe side should she get pregnant again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786.md?page=14)