# Phlosphr, you are a fucking idiot (re: home birth) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 17, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786 "2011-06-17T02:43:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/261 "2011-06-18T17:59:48Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > To those who want their birth to be “special”: you have the rest of your child’s life ahead of you, full of special moments. What you want for the birth is _efficient_. Agreed. Like in our case, the efficient way they did the emergency C when it turned out the cord was wrapped around Dibblet’s neck. I have nothing against home birth historically, some of my best siblings were home births. But fuck’s sake, we’ve moved on. I wouldn’t want one for any child of ours. I don’t like the risks. My daughter would be dead if we’d homebirthed. RN/CNM or no. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/262 "2011-06-18T18:05:38Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > I wonder, and there probably is a study, if men and women get treated differently regarding pain relief for the same problems. It triggers because you said kidney stones. I have a male friend who is prone to kidney stones - and his medicine cabinet is a narcotic addicts idea of heaven. I have a female friend who just passed a kidney stone, and I said “oh, at least they give you the good drugs” and she got Tylenol-3 and told “this will be painful.” Now, it could have just been a difference in doctors, but I kind of wonder… Yes, there have been studies conducted that have shown that men and women expressing pain get treated quite differently by _some_ medical personnel. There are also differences due to ethnicity, age, poverty/wealth, and a host of other factors. On top of that, there are studies showing that men and women react differently to different pain killers, some work better on men and some better on women. And on top of _that_, many people with red hair also react differently to painkillers and anesthesia than non-redheads. And… yes, one more… there is a VAST difference in pain tolerance between different individuals, and an individual’s pain tolerance also varies over time. So… between the social-cultural issues, and the physical differences, the question of who hurts and how much and how seriously they’re taken and what they’re given is more complicated than you might think. However, with childbirth there is the complication that it’s not about _just_ the woman - in no case does medicating a man mean someone else gets involuntarily medicated at the same time\*. If you medicate a pregnant woman you are _always_ also medicating an infant at the same time. - Well, OK, conjoined twins, but those are pretty freakin’ rare. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/263 "2011-06-18T18:07:34Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Agreed. > > Like in our case, the efficient way they did the emergency C when it turned out the cord was wrapped around Dibblet’s neck. > > I have nothing against home birth historically, some of my best siblings were home births. But fuck’s sake, we’ve moved on. I wouldn’t want one for any child of ours. I don’t like the risks. My daughter would be dead if we’d homebirthed. RN/CNM or no. This was exactly the question I asked a few times in the other thread: Given that many home births come out just fine AND that many hospital births are positive experiences, where would you want to be in the slim chance that something goes catastrophically wrong? I never quite got an answer to that. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/264 "2011-06-18T18:11:11Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > This was exactly the question I asked a few times in the other thread: > > Given that many home births come out just fine AND that many hospital births are positive experiences, where would you want to be in the slim chance that something goes catastrophically wrong? > > I never quite got an answer to that. Yeah, in Philosphr’s case, I’m especially curious about this. They’ve got a great hospital, WITH a birthing center that they think is terrific. Isn’t that the best of both worlds? Why not take advantage? ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/265 "2011-06-18T18:22:38Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Yeah, in Philosphr’s case, I’m especially curious about this. They’ve got a great hospital, WITH a birthing center that they think is terrific. Isn’t that the best of both worlds? Why not take advantage? It’s the chemicals, man. Plus the music. > [@Birthing at home: Getting over the fear.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birthing-at-home-getting-over-the-fear/584990/28): > > One thing I must mention, something I put a lot of stock in: is that the chemicals that are floating your the mothers brain at the time of birth are very important to bonding - not that bonding does not happen during a c-section or with an epidural - but one of the main reasons for natural birth is to experience it…some people say it is a spiritual experience: I’ll say for me and my wife, it is a rite of passage that we want to be fully present for. > [@Birthing at home: Getting over the fear.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birthing-at-home-getting-over-the-fear/584990/30): > > I’m not too worried. I am looking forward to walking with my wife during labor, looking at the mountains, playing a little Ben Folds, and other music, getting in the tub, and just being in a climate and location that is very familiar. The reduction of stress is incredibly helpful during birth and our midwife is all about the low stress! The midwife talked them out of the birthing center, the one who has thinks stillborn babies are a success story and who has never had to transport ever in 26 years. > [@Birthing at home: Getting over the fear.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birthing-at-home-getting-over-the-fear/584990/1): > > In our research we find the scary statistics our medical doctor has given us are accurate, but slanted to make them seem more prevalent then they really are. Our midwife informed us that there are very, very few reasons why we would need to transport very fast, and in 26 years of midwifery she has never had to do it. > [@Birthing at home: Getting over the fear.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/birthing-at-home-getting-over-the-fear/584990/28): > > Very true, but back then we were still considering the birthing center. After meeting with the midwife several times, we opted for the home birth. I can understand the appeal of someone guaranteeing you that everything will be just fine and dandy, but dismissing the “scary statistics” from the doctor is putting your head in the sand. Not a very good position for giving birth I’d say. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/266 "2011-06-18T18:30:48Z")
Yeah, I said I’d drop the grey floppy baby story, because Philosphr says that he gets that this is a dire situation. But…I really really worry about the midwife not advising transfer appropriately. It makes no sense to me that she’s been a midwife as long as she has, and has delivered over 1000 babies, and never, NOT ONCE, has she seen a situation that she thought indicated need for transfer. I stated, I think in the other thread, that if that is true then I strongly question her judgment, and nothing that’s been said has made me change my thinking on that. ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/267 "2011-06-18T18:41:29Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Yeah, I said I’d drop the grey floppy baby story, because Philosphr says that he gets that this is a dire situation. But…I really really worry about the midwife not advising transfer appropriately. It makes no sense to me that she’s been a midwife as long as she has, and has delivered over 1000 babies, and never, NOT ONCE, has she seen a situation that she thought indicated need for transfer. I stated, I think in the other thread, that if that is true then I strongly question her judgment, and nothing that’s been said has made me change my thinking on that. Yeah, 1000 births and not one of them has required an emergency c-section? Those are some weird statistics. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/268 "2011-06-18T20:18:07Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > But…I really really worry about the midwife not advising transfer appropriately. Precisely. He might as well cancel the ambulance standing by, because if she won’t transfer for that case, she ain’t gonna transfer for anything short of somebody bleeding out. And if that happens, they’re too far away from the hospital to do any good. If that’s a risk they’re comfortable taking that’s fine, but it troubles me that they’re putting so much faith in her being willing to transfer if things go badly. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/269 "2011-06-18T20:35:33Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > Precisely. He might as well cancel the ambulance standing by, because if she won’t transfer for that case, she ain’t gonna transfer for anything short of somebody bleeding out. And if that happens, they’re too far away from the hospital to do any good. If that’s a risk they’re comfortable taking that’s fine, but it troubles me that they’re putting so much faith in her being willing to transfer if things go badly. I don’t know if even then, because he said she’d dealt with placental abruption, and still never had a reason to transfer. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/270 "2011-06-18T20:43:29Z")
I’m still trying to figure out how a newborn tells the difference between home and hospital and how they can change the nature of the bonding experience based upon their observations… “Shit, I was born in a hospital. Fuck you mom - no hormones for you!” “Hell yeah, I was born at home. We’re going to hormone party like it’s 1999!” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/271 "2011-06-18T20:51:16Z")
Heh. Yeah, good point. Both locations are just as alien to the baby. If this midwife has said she’s attended over 1000 deliveries without ever once encountering a need for a C-section, she’s a liar. Most likely, she’s lyiong about how much experience she’s had. I wouldn’t take her word for anything about her credentials. You know she’s told at least one huge lie. That should be a red flag. ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/272 "2011-06-18T21:57:58Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > snip All your points are well taken. I think the big issue from my point of view is that she was perfectly willing to kill her term fetus because of the possibility of being pregnant in the future in Nigeria without good health care. It just seems easier to do the damn C-section and either not have more kids, get good prenatal/delivery care in Nigeria, or roll the dice, instead of killing your baby. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/273 "2011-06-18T22:52:06Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > All your points are well taken. I think the big issue from my point of view is that she was perfectly willing to kill her term fetus because of the possibility of being pregnant in the future in Nigeria without good health care. > > It just seems easier to do the damn C-section and either not have more kids, get good prenatal/delivery care in Nigeria, or roll the dice, instead of killing your baby. I’m going to go out on a limb and assume that she was fairly familiar with her own life circumstances and the medical care available in Nigeria. Do you think it possible that she could make the decision in this wrenching case that involved her and not us? ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/274 "2011-06-18T23:23:20Z")
C sections aren’t without risk, and they are overused: One of many cites: [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20427256/ns/health-pregnancy/t/more-us-women-dying-childbirth/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20427256/ns/health-pregnancy/t/more-us-women-dying-childbirth/) ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/275 "2011-06-18T23:35:05Z")
Re: the Nigerian woman: I think it’s a fairly standard part of how most people think that we don’t want to kill an innocent person now just to reduce the possibility of killing other innocent people in the future. And if I were a doctor and a patient expressed their wishes to let their baby die based on possibly having a better outcome in the future on very specific facts that may occur, I’m pretty suyre I’d say “Fuck that, I’m saving this baby.” ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/276 "2011-06-18T23:46:11Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Yes, there have been studies conducted that have shown that men and women expressing pain get treated quite differently by _some_ medical personnel. There are also differences due to ethnicity, age, poverty/wealth, and a host of other factors. > > On top of that, there are studies showing that men and women react differently to different pain killers, some work better on men and some better on women. > > And on top of _that_, many people with red hair also react differently to painkillers and anesthesia than non-redheads. > > And… yes, one more… there is a VAST difference in pain tolerance between different individuals, and an individual’s pain tolerance also varies over time. > > So… between the social-cultural issues, and the physical differences, the question of who hurts and how much and how seriously they’re taken and what they’re given is more complicated than you might think. > > However, with childbirth there is the complication that it’s not about _just_ the woman - in no case does medicating a man mean someone else gets involuntarily medicated at the same time\*. If you medicate a pregnant woman you are _always_ also medicating an infant at the same time. > > - Well, OK, conjoined twins, but those are pretty freakin’ rare. The baby has had to put up with mom’s bad habits for nine months. Then has a lifetime ahead of them of getting McDonalds Happy Meals instead of tofu and broccoli. Mom is about to have the right to knock them out with Benedryl and let them drink Diet Coke. Even if you raise your kids in a granola hippy organic vegetarian world (which some of my girlfriends do, and my own kids get about 40% of their diet that way - organic, vegetarian - but we do 50% in a more standard American diet and 10% in the pure junk) they still manage to get junk food, exposure to chemicals, pollution - unless you take them out to the Unabomber shack and raise them there. I figure that the kid is in for much worse than a little Nubain and some through the placenta epidural blockers. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/277 "2011-06-19T00:01:33Z")
Home birthing is something you do when you’re snowed in or appearing in the season finale of a sitcom. Giving birth at home because you want to is even stupider than not immunizing your kids because Jenny McCarthy said not to. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/278 "2011-06-19T00:16:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Home birthing is something you do when you’re snowed in or appearing in the season finale of a sitcom. Giving birth at home because you want to is even stupider than not immunizing your kids because Jenny McCarthy said not to. I’m going to take issue with this. I know you were going for hyperbole, but homebirth is categorically not stupider than leaving your kids unvaccinated. Leaving your kids unvaccinated is one of the stupidest possible things you can do as a parent and has an impact on society at large. To be clear, I’m not defending homebirth, I’m attacking anti-vaxers. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/279 "2011-06-19T00:24:50Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > All your points are well taken. I think the big issue from my point of view is that she was perfectly willing to kill her term fetus because of the possibility of being pregnant in the future in Nigeria without good health care. > > It just seems easier to do the damn C-section and either not have more kids, get good prenatal/delivery care in Nigeria, or roll the dice, instead of killing your baby. Reliable birth control and the ability to take it (and not have it taken away from you by your husband or his brothers) is not as easy in Nigeria as it is here, either. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/280 "2011-06-19T00:33:30Z")
> [@BottledBlondJeanie](#): > > But, NAF1138’s story in that same thread scares the shit out of me and should scare the shit out of the rest of you. His wife took castor oil to make labor progress to avoid pitocin “at all costs.” Because, you know, castor oil is natural. She took two doses and labor progressed so rapidly that the main midwife wasn’t even there. The bag was black with meconium. The midwife couldn’t find a heartbeat for 4 minutes and didn’t realize the kid was breach. Mom had to go to the hospital and desperately try not to push for the 20 minute ambulance ride. But, THEY’D DO THE SAME THING AGAIN. WTF! You know, I was going to stay out of this thread, but I figured I would drop in and clear some shit up since my posting was dragged into it. None of what you said up there is accurate and it portrays my wife and I as lunatics, I would like you to knock it off RIGHT \*THE FUCK \*NOW. Ahem. Re Pitocin: Wonderful drug, but counter-indicated for inducing labor. By the manufacturer even. Pitocin itself isn’t evil, it is simply that it typically makes labor so painful as to typically be torture for the mother and agitating for the baby. The baby gets agitated you end up with an unnecessary C-Section. Or the labor is so painful you need drugs to get through it. Drugs slow down labor, you get more pitocin, you get more drugs, etc etc, until either the baby is born doped to hell or you get a c-section. Re: castor oil. Castor oil does not make the uterus contract. It makes you poop. Pooping can stimulate labor though. The castor oil was recommended (both dosages) by our midwife who has been delivering babies as a midwife since the 70s and assisting as a Nurse since the 50s. Even so, my wife didn’t want to take it, so we got a second opinion from our OB. He has been practicing since the 1970s too. Got a fancy degree from UCLA medical. It’s a good school. He was in favor, and said that it couldn’t hurt. His words. His concern was that it would not get labor started. So we acted on the best advice of out medical care providers. Our midwife unfortunately was caught in traffic. My wife labors quickly and that was unexpected. The castor oil worked and was out of her system a full 2 hours before labor started. Labor began normally and the midwife hurried over. The person who was with us was a Dula not a midwife. We transferred to the hospital at the first sign of trouble, it was about 5 minutes from the point that our doula thought there was something wrong until the point that my wife was actively in the hospital. This is because ambulances can cover a the half mile from our house to the hospital fairly quickly, and we lived practically next door to a fire station. We were prepared for something to go wrong. It took me 20 minutes to get to the hospital (probably less honestly) because I don’t have an ambulance. She wasn’t allowed to push that whole time because they determined that the baby was fine, but breech and they couldn’t figure out what to do about it at the hospital. Did our midwife make it in time? No. Had she gotten there she would have sent us to the hospital even sooner. Did our OB make it in time? No he didn’t either. The labor was natural though, not rushed by the castor oil because CASTOR OIL DOESN’T MAKE THE UTERUS CONTRACT YOU FLAMING CUNT FUCK RETARD! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786.md?page=15)