# Phlosphr, you are a fucking idiot (re: home birth) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 17, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786 "2011-06-17T02:43:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/281 "2011-06-19T00:33:51Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Re: the Nigerian woman: I think it’s a fairly standard part of how most people think that we don’t want to kill an innocent person now just to reduce the possibility of killing other innocent people in the future. And if I were a doctor and a patient expressed their wishes to let their baby die based on possibly having a better outcome in the future on very specific facts that may occur, I’m pretty suyre I’d say “Fuck that, I’m saving this baby.” Except that the “other innocent person” is the mother herself, who I’m sorry, has a right to some degree of self-preservation. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/282 "2011-06-19T00:37:35Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Home birthing is something you do when you’re snowed in or appearing in the season finale of a sitcom. Giving birth at home because you want to is even stupider than not immunizing your kids because Jenny McCarthy said not to. Not immunizing your kids puts my kid at risk. Way stupider. We didn’t come to home birth because we have a deep seeded hippy side to us. It was 6 months into the pregnancy that we changed out plans. My wife was originally all for lots of drugs, but the more we learned during the course of the pregnancy the more we realized that we wanted specific things for said pregnancy and that finding doctors or hospitals who would be willing to do things like, let me wife labor in whatever position she chose, or not give her drugs when she tells them not to, was going to be difficult to say the least. Home birth isn’t for everyone, but my wife was very low risk and we changed our plan, again, with the help and guidance of a qualified OB as well as possibly the most well respected Midwife west of the Mississippi. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/283 "2011-06-19T00:39:27Z")
Why did you even take the castor oil, **NAF**? Or why did your wife, I guess. I’m opposed in general to labor induction methods, even supposedly “natural and gentle” ones like castor oil. If the baby’s not ready, the baby’s not ready. And if the baby isn’t ready but needs to be born anyway for whatever reason, I think medical supervision of some sort is probably in order. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/284 "2011-06-19T00:46:54Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Except that the “other innocent person” is the mother herself, who I’m sorry, has a right to some degree of self-preservation. I accounted for that in my response. “Let this baby die or there is some possible set of circumstances under wgich I myself will die in the future” is not that compelling an argument to me (but please allow YM to V, and please be prepared to potentially serve some time if you are an OBGYN doctor (or pay huge damages if the mom later changes her mind)). ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/285 "2011-06-19T00:55:37Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I accounted for that in my response. > > “Let this baby die or there is some possible set of circumstances under wgich I myself will die in the future” is not that compelling an argument to me (but please allow YM to V, and please be prepared to potentially serve some time if you are an OBGYN doctor (or pay huge damages if the mom later changes her mind)). See, the thing is, it’s super easy to get pregnant without intending to, especially if you don’t have access to birth control, and it’s super easy to die from attempting a vaginal birth after cesarean, especially if you’re in a place that doesn’t offer great medical care. Her likeliness of dying in a few years from this situations is far, far higher than the likeliness of Philosphr’s baby dying during delivery, which you’re jumping all over his ass for. And I’m the most pro-life person you’ll ever find on this boards, so you’re not talking to someone who is flippant about babies dying. That’s why I’ve been yapping on this homebirth issue for the last two days. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/286 "2011-06-19T01:04:05Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Why did you even take the castor oil, **NAF**? Or why did your wife, I guess. > > I’m opposed in general to labor induction methods, even supposedly “natural and gentle” ones like castor oil. If the baby’s not ready, the baby’s not ready. And if the baby isn’t ready but needs to be born anyway for whatever reason, I think medical supervision of some sort is probably in order. Very long story short: my wife’s water broke with a high leak. The ob was fine with waiting 48 hours from the time of the tear but jot a minute longer. At 28 hours or so my wife was having some contractions but not many and they were short and far apart. The midwife was on her way from the moment we knew labor started but like I said she labored quickly once it got going and there were other circumstances that caused things to go weird. Also, for the record had we planned a hospital birth things would not have been a whole lot different. We wouldn’t have gone to the hospital until my wife was well into first stage labor and we wouldn’t have called an abmulabce because we would have left before transition but the way things went transition would have happened in the car, due to road constriction that day, and the rest would probably have been about the same since transition lasted all of 15 minutes and the baby flipped breech in labor. ---
**Author:** ![roxie\_monoxide](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6bbea6/32.png) [@roxie\_monoxide](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roxie_monoxide)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/287 "2011-06-19T01:09:09Z")
Actually castor oil does stimulate contractions. It is a stimulant laxative which works by causing strong contractions in the colon. Stimulant laxative are usually the last resort for constipation in pregnancy after fiber, stool softeners etc. because of this effect. Strong contractions in the colon can cause sympathetic contractions in the uterus. It has been an old wives remedy for exactly this reason. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/288 "2011-06-19T01:23:32Z")
> [@roxie\_monoxide](#): > > Actually castor oil does stimulate contractions. It is a stimulant laxative which works by causing strong contractions in the colon. Stimulant laxative are usually the last resort for constipation in pregnancy after fiber, stool softeners etc. because of this effect. Strong contractions in the colon can cause sympathetic contractions in the uterus. It has been an old wives remedy for exactly this reason. Right. Like I said it makes you poop and the pooping causes contractions. It doesn’t work directly on the uterus. That is what I said isn’t it? I was typing with a touch of anger so maybe I wasn’t clear. ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/289 "2011-06-19T01:30:57Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Very long story short: my wife’s water broke with a high leak. The ob was fine with waiting 48 hours from the time of the tear but jot a minute longer. At 28 hours or so my wife was having some contractions but not many and they were short and far apart. The midwife was on her way from the moment we knew labor started but like I said she labored quickly once it got going and there were other circumstances that caused things to go weird. > > Also, for the record had we planned a hospital birth things would not have been a whole lot different. We wouldn’t have gone to the hospital until my wife was well into first stage labor and we wouldn’t have called an abmulabce because we would have left before transition but the way things went transition would have happened in the car, due to road constriction that day, and the rest would probably have been about the same since transition lasted all of 15 minutes and the baby flipped breech in labor. Nice rant earlier, but why did your wife take Castor Oil again? Was she badly constipated? No, you administered two doses of Castor Oil to try and induce labour since your OB had told you that your wife would need to go to the hospital for a c-section if she wasn’t in labour by that evening because of complications with the way her water broke. So yes, things would have gone a lot differently if you had not done everything in your power to avoid a c-section, at great risk to your baby, including your wife resisting the paramedics and assaulting the doctor at the hospital. Your child survived despite all your efforts, I guess that’s something to be proud of. :rolleyes: Here was your summary of the experience: > [@](#): > > When everything is said and done, I would still call this a fairly successful home birth experience. Had Catherine been there sooner she would have noticed when Charlie flipped breech, and Ivy would have gone to the hospital sooner and had a c section. Had we been delivering in a hospital like normal they would have noticed the knot or the cord in a late ultrasound and there would have been a c section. And after being held hostage by the hospital for 24 hours after delivery for no good reason, and experiencing the difference between laboring (and nearly birthing) at home and in a hospital, I think I can say that without question that we will be doing a home birth for any subsequint kids. Yay, you screwed everything up so badly that there wasn’t even time for a c-section and people actually thought your baby was dead, good job. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/290 "2011-06-19T01:46:02Z")
> [@Implicit](#): > > Nice rant earlier, but why did your wife take Castor Oil again? Was she badly constipated? No, you administered two doses of Castor Oil to try and induce labour since your OB had told you that your wife would need to go to the hospital for a c-section if she wasn’t in labour by that evening because of complications with the way her water broke. So yes, things would have gone a lot differently if you had not done everything in your power to avoid a c-section, at great risk to your baby, including your wife resisting the paramedics and assaulting the doctor at the hospital. Your child survived despite all your efforts, I guess that’s something to be proud of. :rolleyes: > > Here was your summary of the experience: > > Yay, you screwed everything up so badly that there wasn’t even time for a c-section and people actually thought your baby was dead, good job. Took captor oil with the blessing of said OB to avoid a c section in what had been a totally normal routine birth up to that point. Like I said, my daughter was head down when labor started my wife was uber low risk. Do you understand what the complications with how her water broke were? Just curious because I think you don’t actually know much about the subject of birthing making you more or less unqualified to participate in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/291 "2011-06-19T01:52:07Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Took captor oil with the blessing of said OB to avoid a c section in what had bees a totally normal routine birth. Like I said, my daughter was head down when labor started. > > Do you understand what the complications with how her water broke were? Just curious because I think you don’t actually know much about the subject of birthing making you more or less unqualified to participate in this thread. Do you understand that you _attempted to induce labor by chemical means_? Get off your high horse. You induced. Which according to you = failure and/or evil, so I can understand why you wouldn’t be able to admit it. The induction process you used had certain negative repercussions which were common and expected, except for the fact that you were not informed about what they would be. (powerful, painful contractions, and, I assume, shitting oneself, since violent diarrhea follows castor oil) ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/292 "2011-06-19T01:57:02Z")
By the way, I am not trying to advocate for anyone to have home birth here. It’s right for some people, not for others every birth is different. I am simply trying to prevent someone from using my daughter’s birth story as a reason to avoid home birth. Yes, it’s a story where nearly everything went wrong. All sorts of weird stuff happened, and my daughter is healthy and happy now. Much of this weird stuff would have happened if we had attempted \*any \*form of natural child birth. Unless you are advocating that all children be born by C-Section, you don’t have much of an argument using our birth experience. That’s actually why I think it was a good story for Phlosphr to hear, and letting Phlosphr hear it is the only reason I posted it on this board at all. I am not really interested in debating the merits of home birth vs. hospital birth, I just don’t want people twisting around things that I have said to support their own ignorant knee jerk opinions. Hence the rant was about mistakes in interpretation of my words, not about home birth in general. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/293 "2011-06-19T01:58:35Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Do you understand that you _attempted to induce labor by chemical means_? > > Get off your high horse. You induced. Which according to you = failure and/or evil, so I can understand why you wouldn’t be able to admit it. > > The induction process you used had certain negative repercussions which were common and expected, except for the fact that you were not informed about what they would be. (powerful, painful contractions, and, I assume, shitting oneself, since violent diarrhea follows castor oil) You misunderstand. Induction doesn’t equal fail. Shit happens, sometimes you have to use interventions. That isn’t my point. My point is that this was a preferable form of intervention, with everything that we knew at the time, to pitocin or c-section. If we needed to section or use pitocin we would have done that too. At the time that my wife was directed _by her medical advisers **including her OB** _ to take castor oil neither of those seemed necessary. Had they the OB would have had her in for a section immediately rather than signing off on the castor oil. Our using castor oil wasn’t some wacky thing we just decided to do. That is the only reason I even posted, so I could defend our reasoning and the choices we made at the time. Had my post not been brought up you wouldn’t be hearing from me at all. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/294 "2011-06-19T02:07:09Z")
Missed the edit. I also take exception to being told that I nearly killed my child. Considering that I actually thought my child had died that day, and that it turned out there was never any real danger to \*her \*it’s in rather poor taste. There was real danger to my wife, but that is a different matter. ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/295 "2011-06-19T02:09:02Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Took captor oil with the blessing of said OB to avoid a c section in what had been a totally normal routine birth up to that point. Like I said, my daughter was head down when labor started my wife was uber low risk. > > Do you understand what the complications with how her water broke were? Just curious because I think you don’t actually know much about the subject of birthing making you more or less unqualified to participate in this thread. Leaking amniotic fluid for a long period of time before active labour starts carries an increased risk of infection and possibly a prolapsed cord since the cushion for the baby is removed, which is why your OB set a 48 hour window. But hey, inducing labour in a hospital setting with monitoring and supervision is bad and inducing labour with Castor Oil at home with an inexperienced doula in attendance is good, since there isn’t any possible way to end up with a dreaded c-section at home. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/296 "2011-06-19T02:17:40Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Yeah, I said I’d drop the grey floppy baby story, because Philosphr says that he gets that this is a dire situation. But…I really really worry about the midwife not advising transfer appropriately. It makes no sense to me that she’s been a midwife as long as she has, and has delivered over 1000 babies, and never, NOT ONCE, has she seen a situation that she thought indicated need for transfer. I stated, I think in the other thread, that if that is true then I strongly question her judgment, and nothing that’s been said has made me change my thinking on that. Sarahfeena - I said before, this midwife does not have a fear of transferring…meaning, she has no problem transferring. That…she has transferred many, many times. One story I did share was that she was asked to not to transfer for a particular woman who stated, _“you’d have to hit me over the head with a frying pan to get me to go to a hospital”_. Like the ones who are adamant about being in hospitals, some home birth folks are adamant about being out of the hospitals… This is not us. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/297 "2011-06-19T02:24:28Z")
NAF, I think the objection is that you seem to have counted it as a successful homebirth solely due to the fact that you ultimately avoided a c-section which you surely would have had if you had been at the hospital. Whereas, to some of us who don’t want close calls and don’t want to have to be told by a midwife trainee that our baby is dead when she’s not and don’t want to have a risky delivery because there isn’t time for a c-section and don’t want to be traumatized by unexpected emergency vaginal exams think it doesn’t really sound at all like a successful homebirth at all. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/298 "2011-06-19T02:26:12Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Right. Like I said it makes you poop and the pooping causes contractions. It doesn’t work directly on the uterus. That is what I said isn’t it? I was typing with a touch of anger so maybe I wasn’t clear. Uh huh. And calories don’t make you fat and guns don’t kill. ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/299 "2011-06-19T02:26:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* NAF1138: \*\*None of what you said up there is accurate and it portrays my wife and I as lunatics, I would like you to knock it off RIGHT THE FUCK NOW. Let’s examine what I said and what you said. > [@](#): > > \*\* Me:\*\* But, NAF1138’s story in that same thread scares the shit out of me and should scare the shit out of the rest of you. His wife took castor oil to make labor progress to avoid pitocin “at all costs.” > [@](#): > > \*\* NAF1138: \*\*So, last you heard was about an hour after the first dose of Castor Oil, that was 10:30 am. At 11:30 am the midwife had her take a second dose of Castor Oil because the backup doctor didn’t want to go past 6pm without labor starting. If things didn’t get going by then he was going to have us come in and he would start things himself which meant at the very least a dose of Pitocin. Nasty stuff when used to induce labor, but unfortunately common in modern obstetrics. We wanted to avoid it **at all costs.** > [@](#): > > \*\* Me: \*\*Because, you know, castor oil is natural. She took two doses and labor progressed so rapidly that the main midwife wasn’t even there. > [@](#): > > \*\* NAF1138: \*\*Fortunatly, the second dose did the trick. About a half hour after she finished the castor oil things started picking up. There were still some contractions but real labor (first stage labor) hadn’t actually started, we were still in pre labor. The contractions were coming very irregularly, sometimes 10 minutes apart, sometimes 30 seconds apart, and they were only lasting about 25 seconds but they were VERY painful (we later found out that is was all probably caused by the cator oil. It’s uncomfortable stuff). Not a good sign. Remember that the second dose was at 10:30 a.m. > [@](#): > > \*\* NAF1138: \*\*So we called the midwife (her name is Catherine, it feels weird just calling her the midwife) who told us she would keep in touch because it sounded like real labor would start soon, and then we called our Doula, who will be a midwife sometime next month but is not one quite yet. . . . This is important because it means that while she knew what she was doing, she didn’t actually have any monitoring equipment with her beyond a Doppler because doing anything more than listening to the baby’s heartbeat would constitute a felony. She (her name is Katie) showed up at around 1:30 and real labor had started by then. The contractions were still short, which confused me, but it turns out we had been timing them a bit wrong since Ivy was seemingly not feeling them start or stop. So while I was timing them at 45 seconds, they were really probably closer to a minute in length. They were about 5-6 minutes apart at this point but not totally regular (sometimes they were coming faster) Katied (doula) called Catherine (the midwife) who had her check the heartbeat, and everything sounded strong and good. So you’re right, there wasn’t even a midwife with you when your wife took the 2nd dose of castor oil, your doula was, and I am off a month of the timing of her certification. So contractions are irregular, no monitoring equipment and contractions are 5-6 minutes apart. > [@](#): > > \*\* NAF1138: \*\*Catherine said she would come by in a couple of hours since things seemed to be progressing well, she would be there by six o’clock no matter what, but would try to shoot for a earlier since things seemed to be picking up quickly. I had that phone call with her at 2pm and we started to fill the birthing tub. . . . At three o’clock Ivy was at the end of first stage labor. Contractions were 2-3 minutes apart and a minute long, and they hurt. They hurt a lot. They hurt WAY more than Katie thought they should. At first she thought it was because Ivy was fighting the contractions and not staying relaxed and breathing enough, but we soon realized that Ivy was about to enter transition, and Catherine hadn’t shown up yet. It had only been an hour, things were going WAY faster than anyone was expecting. Katie called Catherine who got into the car and started to head to our house. The birthing tub was only about half full at this point, so Katie went to go bucket more water into it so Ivy could get in it to help with her pain. > > At about 3:30 Ivy hit transition and started to say she didn’t think she could get through things without drugs. We called Catherine who said she was still about 30 minutes away and if we could just hold on for a little while longer she would be there. Something’s wrong. The midwife is still 30 minutes away. But she tells you to hold on. > [@](#): > > \*\* Me: \*\* The bag was black with meconium. The midwife couldn’t find a heartbeat for 4 minutes and didn’t realize the kid was breach. > [@](#): > > \*\* NAF1138: \*\*At four o’clock Ivy is saying she needs to push. Katie says that she should do what she has to and that Catherine should be here any minute. She goes to call Catherine while I stay with Ivy. Ivy pushes and I think I see the baby crowning, so I call Katie in and she takes a look at things. She says that, no, it’s not the baby’s head it’s the bag of waters. **It’s dark black**. . . . But our bag was dark black. The meconium was undiluted. This was bad. Very bad. I didn’t know that this was so very bad at the time though. It seems that when there is a head down baby, meconium presentation in that way is typically a sign of infant death. Again, I didn’t know this, but Katie (being trained but not yet licensed as a midwife) did. She grabbed her doppler and started listening for the fetal hearbeat and couldn’t find it. She looked for four minutes and then asked me to call 911. This was at 4:15. Catherine still has not arrived. . . . They [the paramedics] tell me not to worry, that the baby is breech and that everything will be ok. That’s why Katie couldn’t find the heart sounds, and why the meconium was thick black (it’s typical for breech babies) > [@](#): > > \*\* Me: \*\*The Mom had to go to the hospital and desperately try not to push for the 20 minute ambulance ride. > [@](#): > > \*\* NAF1138: \*\*Catherine arrives just as the paramedics are loading Ivy onto the ambulance. They consult with each other and Catherine gives them a copy of Ivy’s chart so they can get up to speed quickly. They all tell her not to push. We don’t want the baby to be delivered before they get to the hospital. This is VERY IMPORTANT. DON’T PUSH. Ivy tells me that the next 20 minutes of trying not to push is the most pain she has ever experienced in her whole life. She is screaming a lot. . . . She had the cord wrapped around her neck three times and there was a true knot in it. I read that 20 minutes as the time spent travelling from NAF’s house to the hospital. If I’m wrong and that “20 minutes of trying not to push" and "most pain she has ever experienced in her whole life” means time between leaving NAF’s house and pushing, sorry. But it doesn’t change the story much. > [@](#): > > \*\* Me: \*\*But, THEY’D DO THE SAME THING AGAIN. WTF! > [@](#): > > \*\*NAF1138 \*\*I think I can say that without question that we will be doing a home birth for any subsequint kids. They lucked-out, the baby and mom are healthy. That’s good. And I was wrong about the time his wife was in the ambulance, but she was in the worst pain of her life for 20 minutes between being told by the paramedics not to do so and being able to push. I was also wrong in that the actual midwife didn’t show up until the mother was being loaded in the ambulance, but the doula, who was a month away from being a midwife, was there. I’ll say one of us looks retarded, and you had it right when you said you sound like a lunatic. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/300 "2011-06-19T02:28:54Z")
Also: Didn’t you say your wife had horrible painful contractions after the castor oil? edit: Just saw the last post. Yeah, that’s what I thought. Fucking selfish moron. That shit is child abuse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786.md?page=16)