# Phlosphr, you are a fucking idiot (re: home birth) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 17, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786 "2011-06-17T02:43:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/301 "2011-06-19T02:29:24Z")
With respect to castor oil, there are studies on both sides of the fence. The issues with it are that use of it is somewhat associated with the increased presence of meconium. The peer reviewed studies believe that this association may be due to stimulating the baby’s bowels causing the baby to defecate or may be due to causing trauma to the baby resulting in defecation. Let’s not forget that meconium aspiration is dangerous and can kill a baby. The studies that dismiss the increased finding of meconium generally state that women who use castor oil are overdue and it is true that women who are overdue have an increased amount of meconium presence. NAF1138’s baby was two weeks early. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/302 "2011-06-19T02:33:38Z")
> [@Phlosphr](#): > > Sarahfeena - I said before, this midwife does not have a fear of transferring…meaning, she has no problem transferring. That…she has transferred many, many times. One story I did share was that she was asked to not to transfer for a particular woman who stated, _“you’d have to hit me over the head with a frying pan to get me to go to a hospital”_. Like the ones who are adamant about being in hospitals, some home birth folks are adamant about being out of the hospitals… > This is not us. 🙂 OK, good. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/303 "2011-06-19T02:37:46Z")
> [@Implicit](#): > > Leaking amniotic fluid for a long period of time before active labour starts carries an increased risk of infection and possibly a prolapsed cord since the cushion for the baby is removed, which is why your OB set a 48 hour window. But hey, inducing labour in a hospital setting with monitoring and supervision is bad and inducing labour with Castor Oil at home with an inexperienced doula in attendance is good, since there isn’t any possible way to end up with a dreaded c-section at home. Swing and a miss on the medical facts, but good try. Risk of prolapsed chord was minimal because the baby’s head was already in place, and risk of infection only increases if a vaginal exam has occurred, and that window is 24 hours, but thanks for playing. Anyone else want to play the “I know more about NAF’s daughters birth than he does” game? Edit: You know what, it’s late, and I am starting to feel like I am the guy in that XKCD comic “someone on the internet is WRONG!” This is silly. I said my peace, and I am not actually interested in debating any of this with internet strangers. I wanted to clear up the misuse of my birth story and I feel like I did that well enough. I am not going to change anyone’s mind when it was made up before I posted anything. Thanks all, this has made for an infuriating night. Happy fathers day. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/304 "2011-06-19T02:38:46Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > A regular nurse has only a moderate amount of training in the nursing diagnoses and interventions common to prenatal care, labor and delivery. I can probably tell you if a baby is head up or head down. I can tell you how far dilated you are (well, I can’t, personally, because I haven’t had enough practice yet, but that’s on-the-job training, not nursing school training. But legally, that’s within my scope of practice.) I can listen for fetal heart tones. I can calculate the drip rate for pitocin or mag sulfate or other drugs if a midwife or doctor orders them. I can apply fetal monitors and read the tracings to tell you if it looks like the fetus is in distress. I know what to do if there’s a cord prolapse or the mom starts gushing blood or has trouble breathing. I know how to resuscitate an infant. I can provide emotional and nursing support during labor, delivery and afterwards. But that’s really about it. I can anticipate when a midwife or doctor is likely to order meds, but I can’t order them myself. I can administer them, but I don’t have the training or legal ability to prescribe anything. I am not trained in risk assessment or determining if a particular pregnancy is high or low risk. I have very little training in the common medical complications of pregnancy or how to manage them. (I cannot do medical diagnoses, only nursing diagnoses. Learning the difference between the two takes up most of the first year of nursing school.) Do me a favor, **WhyNot** - bookmark this post of yours, then come back in 10 years and re-read it. You’ll have yourself a good laugh. (sorry to derail) mmm ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/305 "2011-06-19T02:39:51Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > While warm water can be soothing please provide evidence that birthing a baby underwater and have the baby potentially aspirate filthy water is better for either the mother or the baby. Certainly having a baby in the NICU with pneumonia for a few weeks on a ventilator can interfere with bonding. The studies I’ve read actually show waterbirth to be pretty low risk. “A large-scale study of waterbirth in the UK (1994–1996) showed a decrease in perinatal mortality (1.2 per 1,000 for waterbirth vs. 4 per 1,000 for conventional birth during the same period) (Harper 2000; Gilbert 1999; London: Office for National Statistics 2005). While of the 150,000 recorded waterbirths worldwide between 1985 and 1999 problems comparable to non-water births did arise, “ **there are no valid reports of infants deaths due to water aspiration or inhalation** ”,[8] though there are at least 4 reported cases of near-drowning in the medical literature.[9] **If water is kept at body temperature, there is not shown to be a risk of infant breathing under water as it is birthed.** The infant should be birthed completely submerged and lifted out of the water head first. The infant will breathe when the body is exposed to cold air, so the body should not be lifted out of the water before the head.” > **[Water birth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_birth)** > > Water birth is childbirth that occurs in water, usually a birthing pool. It may include the use of water for relaxation and pain relief during the first stage of labour, birth into water in the second stage of labour, and the delivery of the placenta in the third stage of labour. > Proponents believe childbirth in water results in a more relaxed, less painful experience. A 2018 Cochrane Review of water immersion in the first stages of labour found evidence of fewer epidurals and few adverse eff... You also asked me for a cite for my statement about the potential danger of inductions and pain medication in labor having a detrimental effect on important hormones in labor and birth. The sites I’ve listed state that it is recommended that you avoid epidurals and opiate pain relievers during labor if you want to maximize the effect of oxytocin and endorphins. The induction drug pitocin is synthetic oxytocin. When it is introduced, oxytocin can be inhibited. And it has a possibility of serious side effects, one of which is uterine rupture. [http://www.drugs.com/sfx/pitocin-side-effects.html](http://www.drugs.com/sfx/pitocin-side-effects.html) The role of oxytocin: -triggering and regulating uterine contractions -helps to thin and open the cervix -helps ensure that the placenta and membranes are delivered -after birth, helps to contract uterus and stop bleeding -establishment of mother/child bond -causes “let down” in breastfeeding -has a calming effect on mother and baby And some have theorized that receiving pitocin at birth can have lifelong consequences. [Pitocin At Birth Could Have Lifelong Consequences | Science 2.0](http://www.science20.com/susan_kuchinskas/pitocin_at_birth_could_have_lifelong_consequences) Benefits of endorphins include: -calming and pain relieving -alters consciousness to help you through a long labor - makes you feel more alert, attentive, and euphoric after birth -helps mother/infant bonding > **[CBC posts Archive | National Partnership for Women & Families](https://nationalpartnership.org/childbirthconnection/)** > **[Us Smart Publications – Us Smart Publications™ Clarifies the World of...](https://smart-publications.com)** It’s not an exaggeration to say that the state of childbirth in this country is seriously flawed. Our c-section rate is a whopping 32.9%, with many hospitals having rates of 40 or 50%. When you compare that to the WHO’s recommendation of a c-section rate around 10-15% it is evident that something is very wrong. Not to mention that the idea of informed consent is a joke in a lot of hospitals. These are just a few of the reasons so many women are turning to home birth. [http://www.theunnecesarean.com/blog/2010/12/21/us-cesarean-rate-reaches-record-high-rises-for-13th-consecut.html](http://www.theunnecesarean.com/blog/2010/12/21/us-cesarean-rate-reaches-record-high-rises-for-13th-consecut.html) And a humorous blog about the pointless things hospitals do to laboring women: [http://navelgazingmidwife.squarespace.com/navelgazing-midwife-blog/2011/3/14/pointless-hospital-rituals.html](http://navelgazingmidwife.squarespace.com/navelgazing-midwife-blog/2011/3/14/pointless-hospital-rituals.html) > [@](#): > > And perinatal death rates have been relatively high for both mother and child since time began. No method of giving birth is risk free. All anyone can do is try to learn as much as they can and make the best decisions with that knowledge. If natural birth advocates come on too strong, it’s because they want to save women from the negative aspects of hospital care they know too well. They know that there are so many things doctors do not tell their patients. Or when they do tell their patients something, it’s to freak them out by saying the baby is too big to deliver (bullshit most of the time), or wanting to induce because she’s a few days past her EDD. Rarely, if ever, do doctors say anything to empower the woman and give her confidence in her body’s ability to give birth. And other than a few extremists (of which any group has), I’ve found the natural birth community very understanding and non-judgmental of other women’s choices. That’s why I find the hostility about natural birth so confusing. I think it is of utmost importance that women have the choice to birth the way they are most comfortable, whether that’s getting an epidural or going natural, birthing at home, or in a hospital. I would never judge a woman for the choices she makes in her birth. And I don’t think most of the natural birth community would either. They are, first and foremost, believers that women are wise enough to make the right choices for themselves and their babies. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/306 "2011-06-19T02:48:17Z")
Indygrrl, I’m sorry, but that makes me laugh. In my childbirth class, the instructor said, “I have to tell you that epidural is an option and not give you my personal opinion about it, so I won’t.” Uh…ok, guess you don’t approve of my choice, thanks for not telling me that. :rolleyes: I have actually found natural childbirth advocates to be just as judgmental and prone to telling others that they’re doing it wrong as anyone else, but YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/307 "2011-06-19T02:54:03Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > I’m still trying to figure out how a newborn tells the difference between home and hospital and how they can change the nature of the bonding experience based upon their observations… > > “Shit, I was born in a hospital. Fuck you mom - no hormones for you!” > > “Hell yeah, I was born at home. We’re going to hormone party like it’s 1999!” It’s not so much that the newborn knows where he/she is. It’s about the idea that some interventions in the hospital (like induction, pit to “help” labor along, epidural or other pain meds, possible c-section) can inhibit certain hormones that are very important in the mother/infant bonding process. And when those hormones are out of whack it can also have a detrimental effect on breastfeeding. ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/308 "2011-06-19T02:55:34Z")
Regarding post 299. I misstated. There was a doppler, but no other monitoring equipment. ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/309 "2011-06-19T02:58:22Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Indygrrl, I’m sorry, but that makes me laugh. In my childbirth class, the instructor said, “I have to tell you that epidural is an option and not give you my personal opinion about it, so I won’t.” Uh…ok, guess you don’t approve of my choice, thanks for not telling me that. :rolleyes: I have actually found natural childbirth advocates to be just as judgmental and prone to telling others that they’re doing it wrong as anyone else, but YMMV. Yeah, unfortunately there are opinionated assholes in any group. When I see a natural birth “advocate” acting that way I call them out. Thats the last thing you want to do when you want to get someone to consider what you’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/310 "2011-06-19T03:27:58Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Risk of prolapsed chord was minimal because the baby’s head was already in place, Shit, I think I am wrong about this. I remember that the OB was specifically not concerned about a prolapsed chord…but I don’t remember why anymore. It’s been a while. Ok, now I am actually done with this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/311 "2011-06-19T12:58:16Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > All your points are well taken. I think the big issue from my point of view is that she was perfectly willing to kill her term fetus because of the possibility of being pregnant in the future in Nigeria without good health care. > > It just seems easier to do the damn C-section and either not have more kids, get good prenatal/delivery care in Nigeria, or roll the dice, instead of killing your baby. I still think you don’t quite get the picture. [This link](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1169586/) is a summary from an article by the Society of Gynaecologists and Obstetricians of Nigeria In it, it points out that Nigeria has one of the highest maternity death rates in the world, at 1500 women per 100,000 live births, which is _one hundred times_ higher than in the US. Abortion is completely illegal for any reason, and yet 20,000 women a year die from illegal ones there. Why does Nigeria, despite outlawing the procedure, have one of the highest abortion rates in the world? Because only about 6% of the women there practice any sort of birth control at all, mainly because _they don’t have access to it_. [This link from the BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4536554.stm) is full of comments from African men who don’t want birth control, don’t want their wives to have it, and don’t see Africa as having an overpopulation problem. This will, of course, cause additional access problems for women. One of the gems: “In the final analysis however, I as the man make the final decision on the timing and methodology.” In other words - the husbands are making the decisions on birth control, not the women. Add in a culture where having lots of children is the norm and the number of children part of the measure of a man’s virility and you won’t get much birth control. Why would you? It’s not the men who have to run the risk of dying. Given that, saying “get good prenatal/delivery care in Nigeria” is ridiculous. We’re talking about a country where for 94% of the population “birth control” is a back alley abortion and with one of the highest maternity death rates in the world. Is that actually a reasonable position to take? I have no idea how c-sections are done in Nigeria, either. Are they the old-style vertical incision, which _completely_ rules out a safe VBAC later, or the bikini-style horizontal cuts, which can allow for VBAC? Was the women even aware there was a difference? I don’t know, maybe if there had been time to explain that a bikini cut can allow for subsequent vaginal birth the woman wouldn’t have been so hysterical? (Assuming a bikini cut is what was done - sometimes vertical cuts are still performed) > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Re: the Nigerian woman: I think it’s a fairly standard part of how most people think that we don’t want to kill an innocent person now just to reduce the possibility of killing other innocent people in the future. And if I were a doctor and a patient expressed their wishes to let their baby die based on possibly having a better outcome in the future on very specific facts that may occur, I’m pretty suyre I’d say “Fuck that, I’m saving this baby.” In other words, you don’t believe a pregnant woman has a right to make a life-altering decision about her body and future? You know, prior to the 20th Century in most places c-sections were illegal _unless the mother was already dead_. Priority was put on a live mother over a live baby. When did that change? Well, yes, c-sections are much safer these days - _in the industrialized world_. Not so much backwoods Nigeria. Even if the woman had not required a c-section, just by being pregnant in Nigeria she would be _one hundred times more likely to die in childbirth_. One hundred times! Post c-section her chances of dying are _even higher_. That is not a trivial increase. In the 19th Century in the US the death rate from childbirth was about 1 in 100. Today, right now, in Nigeria, the death rate from childbirth is 1.5 - in other words, _higher_ than in 19th Century America prior to antibiotics, anesthesia, effective pain relief and all the trappings of modern medicine. In the 19th Century nearly all births were home births, the very thing you rail against as stupidity (though I’m assuming you’ll forgive them, modern birthing being unavailable back then) and danger, yet you have no qualms about performing a procedure on a woman that _even in the first world_ leaves her at a higher risk of complications even _with_ modern medicine, and then just sending her back to a place where the “normal” rate of maternal death in childbirth is _150%_ of what was occurring back in the wild west days. Can you get it through your thick head that the woman _actually had some reason for her fears?_ It wasn’t some hormone-induced panic, it _really is_ dangerous to give birth _at all_ in Nigeria, and she has to go back there, to a country where more than 90% of the time “birth control” is a back-alley abortion, and a VBAC of any sort is freakin’ dangerous because for 70% or more of the population _there is no access to hospital birth_. At all. It’s a village midwife who may or may not wash her hands before attending a childbirth and who has no, repeat, no means of handling a catastrophe like a uterine rupture and there’s no way to get a women to a hospital in time to do a damn thing about it. Maybe you still disagree with her decision, but understand it wasn’t a completely unfounded fear. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/312 "2011-06-19T14:11:07Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > See, the thing is, it’s super easy to get pregnant without intending to, especially if you don’t have access to birth control, and it’s super easy to die from attempting a vaginal birth after cesarean, especially if you’re in a place that doesn’t offer great medical care. Her likeliness of dying in a few years from this situations is far, far higher than the likeliness of Philosphr’s baby dying during delivery, which you’re jumping all over his ass for. > > And I’m the most pro-life person you’ll ever find on this boards, so you’re not talking to someone who is flippant about babies dying. That’s why I’ve been yapping on this homebirth issue for the last two days. You seem to believe it is inevitable that one day she will give birth again in a place that can’t safely do a C-section, which is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/313 "2011-06-19T14:13:55Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You seem to believe it is inevitable that one day she will give birth again in a place that can’t safely do a C-section, which is ridiculous. She lives in a country where there’s essentially nothing available to most women except for home birth…the very thing you’ve been railing against. Now, all of the sudden, it’s safe enough for her? It’s not even safe enough for the homebirth advocates in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/314 "2011-06-19T14:21:49Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > In other words, you don’t believe a pregnant woman has a right to make a life-altering decision about her body and future? “Her body”? In other words, you don’t understand that a full-term baby is a different person than the pregnant woman? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/315 "2011-06-19T14:32:53Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > “Her body”? In other words, you don’t understand that a full-term baby is a different person than the pregnant woman? And you don’t understand that having a c-section means cutting open a body that belongs to a different person than the baby? ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/316 "2011-06-19T14:34:09Z")
I went and looked up the story of this Nigerian woman. There aren’t a lot of details about it in any of the sources that reference the story, but the details that were provided: The woman was actually pregnant with triplets. The doctors felt she needed a C-section because that would be “safer”. (I could find no details whatsoever indicating their reasons for feeling it would be safer; obviously a vaginal triplet birth is going to be tricky, but I am not sure if that was the only reason for wanting the C-section or if there were other medical indications.) The woman and her husband refused, based on “religious grounds” according to a couple of sources, and based on fear of future pregnancies in Nigeria ending badly with no C-section availability according to others. (This second scenario is what **WhyNot** has been talking about.) The doctors got a court order granting them temporary custody of the fetuses, strapped the woman down in restraints against her and her husband’s will, did the C-section, etc. According to one of the sources I found - it was a journal article, FTR - her husband committed suicide some months later. Unknown whether this is related or not. Edit: This all took place in 1984. Sorry about the informational hijack in a flamey Pit thread. ---
**Author:** ![lorene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/65b543/32.png) [@lorene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lorene)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/317 "2011-06-19T15:26:38Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I went and looked up the story of this Nigerian woman. There aren’t a lot of details about it in any of the sources that reference the story, but the details that were provided: > > The woman was actually pregnant with triplets. The doctors felt she needed a C-section because that would be “safer”. (I could find no details whatsoever indicating their reasons for feeling it would be safer; obviously a vaginal triplet birth is going to be tricky, but I am not sure if that was the only reason for wanting the C-section or if there were other medical indications.) The woman and her husband refused, based on “religious grounds” according to a couple of sources, and based on fear of future pregnancies in Nigeria ending badly with no C-section availability according to others. (This second scenario is what **WhyNot** has been talking about.) The doctors got a court order granting them temporary custody of the fetuses, strapped the woman down in restraints against her and her husband’s will, did the C-section, etc. According to one of the sources I found - it was a journal article, FTR - her husband committed suicide some months later. Unknown whether this is related or not. > > Edit: This all took place in 1984. > > Sorry about the informational hijack in a flamey Pit thread. Yeah, get out of here with your facts. 😉 The fact that she was actually carrying triplets makes a big difference to the story, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/318 "2011-06-19T15:34:04Z")
> [@lorene](#): > > Yeah, get out of here with your facts. 😉 > > The fact that she was actually carrying triplets makes a big difference to the story, IMO. I’ve read twins, but never triplets. Where did that part come from, **MsWhatsit**? ETA: But I’m curious: why does it make a “big difference” to the story? ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/319 "2011-06-19T15:37:51Z")
[Cite 1. (Google Books result.)](http://books.google.com/books?id=hv-f6kBCR4sC&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=nigerian+woman+c-section+1984+chicago&source=bl&ots=fAKDzcR6Mv&sig=NIJGQeLbvfDe8nwMVlnlMJSmd3U&hl=en&ei=Pxf-TaSvNdDegQfpoJjeCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=nigerian%20woman%20c-section%201984%20chicago&f=false) [Cite 2](http://wrongfuldeathattorneyinfo.org/wrongful-death-lawsuit/when-the-stork-brings-a-lawsuit-tort-claims-brought-against-mothers-by-their-living-children-following-prenatal-injury/) [Cite 3 (PDF, relevant section is on page 3 of PDF, page 595 of article).](http://lawjournal.mcgill.ca/documents/Nelson.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/320 "2011-06-19T15:40:49Z")
Because it means the C-section was even more necessary. It means trying to deliver vaginally would be even more dangerous both to the babies and to the mother. And it sounds like her religious superstitions were the big hairy deal. The doctors did what they had to do. They were dealing with a crazy person. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786.md?page=17)