# Phlosphr, you are a fucking idiot (re: home birth) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 17, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786 "2011-06-17T02:43:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Sierra\_Indigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Sierra\_Indigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sierra_Indigo)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/381 "2011-06-20T06:38:12Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [Moderating] > **NAF1138** , please don’t call other posters “cunts.” > > No warning issued. > [/Moderating] This. This right here made me laugh about the absurdity of the “language” in the pit rules. Allcaps FLAMING … FUCK RETARD is a-okay, but “cunt” is the line in the sand. I know you don’t make the rules, you just uphold 'em, but it’s really rather fucking ludicrous, don’t you think? Anyway, that’s my observation over. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/382 "2011-06-20T07:43:50Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > If that’s your position, then see my responses to Broomstick–it is by no means certain (or even probable) that the c-section would later cause the death of the mother, and she is largely in control of whether that would happen. And you base that on… what? With no way of knowing her exact immigration status there is no way to know if it was even possible for her to stay in the US long term. And no, “anchor babies” do not translate into the parents automatically being able to stay in the US. If she’s back in Nigeria, no, she is not “largely in control” of future pregnancies. It’s not a society where women are equal in any sense of the word. There is, as I pointed out, no birth control other than illegal abortions for more than 90% of the population. For the vast majority, there is no reliable access to medical care. It’s too bad, but the world doesn’t actually conform to your Randroid fantasies. > [@](#): > > Well, turns out that some doctors convinced a court that a forced c-section was necessary, so this is all just Monday morning quarterbacking on your part. :rolleyes: Right. Because doctors and courts are never wrong. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/383 "2011-06-20T10:09:44Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Which gets us back to the point that some doctors convinced a court that a c-section was warranted, so it was the best plan for those babies at that time. If courts were right 100% of the time, there would be no reason for appeals courts. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/384 "2011-06-20T12:51:08Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > And you base that on… what? With no way of knowing her exact immigration status there is no way to know if it was even possible for her to stay in the US long term. And no, “anchor babies” do not translate into the parents automatically being able to stay in the US. > > If she’s back in Nigeria, no, she is not “largely in control” of future pregnancies. It’s not a society where women are equal in any sense of the word. There is, as I pointed out, no birth control other than illegal abortions for more than 90% of the population. For the vast majority, there is no reliable access to medical care. > > It’s too bad, but the world doesn’t actually conform to your Randroid fantasies. once again, you are treating this woman as a mindless fulfiller of statistical averages without her own ability to make choices. > [@](#): > > :rolleyes: Right. Because doctors and courts are never wrong. :rolleyes: I said that in response to someone saying we don’t know whether the babies would have died if they were delivered vaginally. Of course we can’t know that, but a court heard testimony from the actual examining doctors and ruled that a c-section was necessary, so that court at least (with more facts than we have) ruled that a c-section was warranted. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/385 "2011-06-20T12:54:29Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > I would think that a libertarian type would respect a woman’s physical autonomy and be outraged over the government taking over and forcing her into unwanted surgery. So you think the woman is the only relevant person here? ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/386 "2011-06-20T13:21:49Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > once again, you are treating this woman as a mindless fulfiller of statistical averages without her own ability to make choices. You mean like choices on how to give birth? Whether or not to have a c-section? She wasn’t given that choice. Your assertion, that she can live if she chooses to stay in America or not have any more children, is a false choice as well. It was stated that she planned to return to Africa, and might have more children. She wanted that particular choice. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I said that in response to someone saying we don’t know whether the babies would have died if they were delivered vaginally. Of course we can’t know that, but a court heard testimony from the actual examining doctors and ruled that a c-section was necessary, so that court at least (with more facts than we have) ruled that a c-section was warranted. Look, the highest neonate mortality rates are, I believe, in Afghanistan, a country where women’s health is hardly a priority at all, and terribly few women have access to medical care for anything, including childbirth. And in Afghanistan, the neonate mortality rate is 60/1000 while the maternal mortality rate is 65/1000. Ghastly, and I’m sure there are also high rates of cerebral palsy and fistula and all that other fun stuff, but think of this: in that nation with hardly any c-sections, only sixty babies die for every 1000 births, yet we are supposed to believe that nearly one in three American babies would die without a c-section? Ludicrous. Even if one errs toward the cautious, it’s absolutely ludicrous. Neonate mortality rate in Nigeria, with not as much modern medical care and all those multiples? It ain’t 310/1000. It’s 39/1000. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/387 "2011-06-20T16:02:39Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > once again, you are treating this woman as a mindless fulfiller of statistical averages without her own ability to make choices. Please point to her ability to defy the statistically most likely outcomes of the situation. Does she have the wealth that would enable her to access advanced medical care? Does she have a means of obtaining permanent residency in a first world nation? Can she obtain a patron who can help her obtain these things? Could she obtain safe surgical sterilization if she decides on that option? It has nothing to do with “mindless”, it has to do with what is the most likely future course her life will take. As I said, life does not follow your Randroid fantasies of naked will overcoming all obstacles. Most women in her position really do wind up back in Africa, in poverty, without access to medical care. That is the _most likely_ outcome for her. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/388 "2011-06-20T16:15:44Z")
No, most illegal residents do not get deported. We have millions of them in the US. It’s not an excuse to murder three babies anyway. The mother’s life was not actually in danger. You people just want to slaughter three babies on the off chance that an entire series of unlikely hypotheticals will lead to this woman’s death in the future. I’d bet anything she never left the country (if she existed at all). You know what? The doctors know better than you. They went to med school. They’re experts. They’re qualified to have an opinion. Midwifes and zealots posting on home birther websites are not qualified to override the opinions of an actual doctor, and any midwife who tries to persuade patients to isolate themselves from access to emergency care during a delivery is an irresponsible, unethical con-artist. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/389 "2011-06-20T16:23:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, most illegal residents do not get deported. We have millions of them in the US. Having spent 20+ years of my career in the immigration field, I am here to tell you that a) people without lawful immigration status get deported all the damn time, and b) many people are not willing to stay in the U.S. unlawfully, regardless of what you might think. > [@](#): > > It’s not an excuse to murder three babies anyway. The mother’s life was not actually in danger. You people just want to slaughter three babies on the off chance that an entire series of unlikely hypotheticals will lead to this woman’s death in the future. I’d bet anything she never left the country (if she existed at all). So you’re psychic and know she wouldn’t have suffered complications from major surgery? And you know that the babies would have died if delivered vaginally? Wow - I am in awe of your omniscience! > [@](#): > > You know what? The doctors know better than you. They went to med school. They’re experts. Midwifes and zealots posting on home birther websites are not qualified to override the opinions of an actual doctor, and any midwife is tries to persuade patients to isolate themselves from access to emergency care during a delivery is an irresponsible, unethical con-artist. You know what? Doctors disagree with each other **all the damn time.** They also make mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/390 "2011-06-20T16:26:23Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > As I said, life does not follow your Randroid fantasies of naked will overcoming all obstacles. Most women in her position really do wind up back in Africa, in poverty, without access to medical care. That is the _most likely_ outcome for her. Not to mention, the outcome \*she \*intended. There’s nothing to suggest she even wanted to stay in the US or wanted to never have more children. Should she be forever barred from her homeland and family so that she can be sure to stay on the Pill and have an ER in case it fails? If that was her choice, then I’d support it, but it was most vehemently not \*her \*choice. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/391 "2011-06-20T16:27:33Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > Having spent 20+ years of my career in the immigration field, I am here to tell you that a) people without lawful immigration status get deported all the damn time Most of them don’t. The odds are relatively low. > [@](#): > > So you’re psychic and know she wouldn’t have suffered complications from major surgery? And you know that the babies would have died if delivered vaginally? Wow - I am in awe of your omniscience! Everything turned out fine, apparently, and there’s no reason to even take the chance. > [@](#): > > You know what? Doctors disagree with each other **all the damn time.** They also make mistakes. Sure they do, so what. That still doesn’t qualify any non-doctors to open their mouths. You certainly can’t let religious idiocy override the opinions of the doctor in the room. Is there any evidence that any other doctor disagreed with the need for a C-section in this case? ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/392 "2011-06-20T16:29:44Z")
In the 50s and 60s, doctors recommended that mothers smoke in order to keep their weight down during pregnancy, that mothers be knocked out cold for delivery, and that formula was preferable over breastmilk. None of that is actually better for the baby, and as medical knowledge moved on, medical recommendations changed. That’s great; that’s as it should be; that’s the scientific method in action. But those are cases of doctors really not knowing best, and I can only hope nonsense such as sky-high c-section rates and keeping the mother from moving around during labor fades away like those old standards did. Doctors often know better. But if they always knew better, there would be no such thing as malpractice insurance. If doctors know best, why are there so many c-sections? Just out of curiosity, **Dio** , what are your thoughts on those OBs and midwives that practice together? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/393 "2011-06-20T16:31:38Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Not to mention, the outcome \*she \*intended. There’s nothing to suggest she even wanted to stay in the US or wanted to never have more children. Should she be forever barred from her homeland and family so that she can be sure to stay on the Pill and have an ER in case it fails? If that was her choice, then I’d support it, but it was most vehemently not \*her \*choice. Killing three babies is not something that belongs on her menu of choices. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/394 "2011-06-20T16:33:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Everything turned out fine, apparently, and there’s no reason to even take the chance. You have a funny idea of “fine” if it includes possibly unnecessary major abdominal surgery. How would you feel if someone sliced open your belly against your will? Especially if you thought, and other medical professionals (yes, including doctors and potentially the WHO) that the surgery was unnecessary? And that it might lead to your unnecessary death later? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/395 "2011-06-20T16:37:00Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > In the 50s and 60s, doctors recommended that mothers smoke in order to keep their weight down during pregnancy, that mothers be knocked out cold for delivery, and that formula was preferable over breastmilk. None of that is actually better for the baby, and as medical knowledge moved on, medical recommendations changed. That’s great; that’s as it should be; that’s the scientific method in action. > > But those are cases of doctors really not knowing best, and I can only hope nonsense such as sky-high c-section rates and keeping the mother from moving around during labor fades away like those old standards did. Doctors often know better. But if they always knew better, there would be no such thing as malpractice insurance. If doctors know best, why are there so many c-sections? They are always going to have a better chance of being right than a non-doctor. Thisis kind of a fallacious argumnt. The fact that doctors are frallible does not make midwives their equals. > [@](#): > > Just out of curiosity, **Dio** , what are your thoughts on those OBs and midwives that practice together? If the midwife is a qualified nurse, I don’t see anything wrong with it as long as the doctor is the one calling the shots. No way in hell I’d want a midwife attending without a doctor there, though. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/396 "2011-06-20T16:38:25Z")
There is no evidence whatsoever that everything turned out “fine” or “not fine” in this case. All we know is that (supposedly) this woman had a forced C-section. None of the articles even mentions whether all the babies were born alive. I mean, I assume that if they hadn’t been, it would have rated a mention, but that’s just it: It’s an assumption. Any other medical or other issues that arose for either babies or mother is simply unknown to us. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/397 "2011-06-20T16:39:31Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > You have a funny idea of “fine” if it includes possibly unnecessary major abdominal surgery. How would you feel if someone sliced open your belly against your will? Especially if you thought, and other medical professionals (yes, including doctors and potentially the WHO) that the surgery was unnecessary? And that it might lead to your unnecessary death later? I would never be so arrogant as to think I knew better than the doctors. My opinion would be that the doctors did what they had to do, and I’d be grateful for it. I also haven’t seen any evdiencce that other doctors or the WHO disagreed with the case in question here. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/398 "2011-06-20T16:42:13Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > There is no evidence whatsoever that everything turned out “fine” or “not fine” in this case. All we know is that (supposedly) this woman had a forced C-section. None of the articles even mentions whether all the babies were born alive. I mean, I assume that if they hadn’t been, it would have rated a mention, but that’s just it: It’s an assumption. Any other medical or other issues that arose for either babies or mother is simply unknown to us. Given the agenda-ed nature of the story, I’m sure if the babies hadn’t been ok the stories would be screaming about it. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/399 "2011-06-20T16:42:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Killing three babies is not something that belongs on her menu of choices. Giving birth to babies vaginally is not killing them. I thought you were pro-choice, anyhow. So why does it matter to you if she’s killing fetuses with her choices? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/400 "2011-06-20T16:44:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s not an excuse to murder three babies anyway. The mother’s life was not actually in danger. Are we certain the _babies’_ lives were in danger? So many doctors today leap right to c-sections for multiple births, but prior to that late 20th Century change in policy women did successfully give birth to multiples in all sorts of circumstances. Short of reviewing her medical records - which for us will never happen due to privacy laws - we’ll never know for certain. > [@](#): > > You people just want to slaughter three babies on the off chance that an entire series of unlikely hypotheticals will lead to this woman’s death in the future. You make it sound like someone was standing at her vagina with an ax, drooling mad and lusting for blood. No such thing. She didn’t want a c-section. That’s nowhere near doing something like choking the life out of newborn. > [@](#): > > I’d bet anything she never left the country (if she existed at all). Pure speculation on your part. > [@](#): > > You know what? The doctors know better than you. They went to med school. They’re experts. They’re qualified to have an opinion. They can also be wrong. Doctors can disagree with each other. They aren’t god, they aren’t omniscient, they aren’t infallible. I thought we got past that a few decades ago but I guess you’re one of the hold-outs. > [@](#): > > Midwifes and zealots posting on home birther websites are not qualified to override the opinions of an actual doctor, and any midwife who tries to persuade patients to isolate themselves from access to emergency care during a delivery is an irresponsible, unethical con-artist. Except, of course, the Nigerian woman was NOT at home giving birth, and NOT attended by a midwife - she was in a modern, fully equipped for emergencies hospital and attended by doctors who, in direct opposition to her wishes, physically tied her down and cut her belly open. _Even if that was actually necessary_ - and I’m not convinced it was - that is a truly horrific thing to subject anyone to, and I can’t help but think there’s a better way to do things. Of course, the accounts vary which makes it difficult to discern the truth here, but it sound like this was NOT a medical emergency - they decided _months in advance_ she was going to have a c-section, like it or not, and waited for labor to start naturally. That doesn’t sound like a “OMG! We have three minutes to get the kid(s) out or everyone dies!” It sounds like no one was in _immediate_ danger of death, but rather than talk to the woman they just strapped her down and slit her belly open. Charming. You don’t find anything wrong with any of that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786.md?page=21)