# Phlosphr, you are a fucking idiot (re: home birth) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 17, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786 "2011-06-17T02:43:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/401 "2011-06-20T16:46:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Everything turned out fine, apparently, and there’s no reason to even take the chance. Wait. We know this how exactly? And the idea that no doctor disagreed with the court order to a c-section is ridiculous when the patient had no chance to seek a second opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/402 "2011-06-20T16:49:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I would never be so arrogant as to think I knew better than the doctors. I fucking would. I came to that conclusion the day my mother went to an ER complaining of crushing chest pain that spiked down her left arm and into her jaw, and difficulty breathing. The doctor poo-poo’ed her concern, ignored her (at that time) 20 year history of heart disease, insisted she was too young and too female to be having a heart attack, and suggested she see a psychiatrist for her symptoms. You know what? He was fucking wrong. Thank god dad took mom to another ER across town where she got the care she needed. Sometimes doctors are wrong. Sometimes it’s possible for a layperson to determine that. I hope to god you never find that out the hard way. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/403 "2011-06-20T16:50:00Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Giving birth to babies vaginally is not killing them. It’s taking reckless and unnecessary chance of it. > [@](#): > > I thought you were pro-choice, anyhow. So why does it matter to you if she’s killing fetuses with her choices? I’ve answered questions about this scenario before. First of all, the abortion issue does not have anything to do with full term pregnancies, so the dilemma is essentially bogus, but my position is, and has been, that the woman has a right to have the babies removed from her body. If the state wants to keep them alive once they’re out, the state may do so. Her right is to terminate the pregnancy. Sometimes termination can be defined as induction or C-section. Even Roe allows the state to limit choices in the 3rd trimester. She has a right to getthem out of her body. She doesn’t have a right to kill them if they can be removed from her body alive. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/404 "2011-06-20T16:52:38Z")
So what are you saying, **Dio**? That ALL pregnancies should end a c-section because vaginal delivery is so unsafe? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/405 "2011-06-20T16:53:44Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I would never be so arrogant as to think I knew better than the doctors. My opinion would be that the doctors did what they had to do, and I’d be grateful for it. If I thought that way, I might have died of a pulmonary embolism in 1995. Luckily, the physical therapist who was evaluating me talked to my surgeon, who sent me back to the hospital for a venous doppler, which found a honking huge deep vein thrombosis **that my internist had missed,** although at the time I had several risk factors for blood clots. Suit yourself, though. Myself, I believe two pairs of eyes are better than one. That, and I catch attorney errors all the damn time, although I am not an attorney. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/406 "2011-06-20T16:55:00Z")
Seriously, doctors aren’t gods, and thinking that way can land you in serious trouble if you happen to get a bad doc. This is completely separate from the whole pregnancy/C-section thing. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/407 "2011-06-20T16:58:29Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > So what are you saying, **Dio**? That ALL pregnancies should end a c-section because vaginal delivery is so unsafe? Huh? How did you get that from anything I said? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/408 "2011-06-20T17:01:13Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Seriously, doctors aren’t gods, and thinking that way can land you in serious trouble if you happen to get a bad doc. This is completely separate from the whole pregnancy/C-section thing. They still know better than non-doctors. The fallibility of doctors does not make it reasonable to ignore them in favor of even _more_ fallible opinions from non-doctors. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/409 "2011-06-20T17:02:12Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > So what are you saying, **Dio**? That ALL pregnancies should end a c-section because vaginal delivery is so unsafe? Well, let’s look back and see. [QUOTE=WhyNot] Giving birth to babies vaginally is not killing them. [/QUOTE] > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s taking reckless and unnecessary chance of it. Yep. Apparently that’s exactly what he’s saying. So I have now learned that doctors know all; midwives, even CNMs, know nothing; and giving birth at home is irresponsible, but really no more than giving birth vaginally at all. Abortions for some, tiny American flags for others, and major abdominal surgery for all\*! \*pregnant women. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/410 "2011-06-20T17:03:11Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Huh? How did you get that from anything I said? You keep harping on c-sections and dismissing any argument that a vaginal delivery doesn’t kill babies. It makes you look like an extremist who doesn’t believe in vaginal deliveries. I sort of doubt you actually _mean_ that, but that’s how you’re starting to sound. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/411 "2011-06-20T17:10:20Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > Well, let’s look back and see. > > Yep. Apparently that’s exactly what he’s saying. No it’s not what I’m saying. That was in reference to a specific case involving triplets, not a sweeping statement about vaginal births in general. All three of my kids were born naturally. > [@](#): > > So I have now learned that doctors know all; midwives, even CNMs, know nothing; and giving birth at home is irresponsible, but really no more than giving birth vaginally at all. No, what I’m saying is that doctors know better than midwives. That is a relative statement, not an absolutist statementabout either. It makes no sense to take the opinion of a non-doctor over a doctor. That’s not to say that the doctor can’t be wrong, but the doctor has considerably less chance of being wrong than a non-doctor. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/412 "2011-06-20T17:11:32Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > You keep harping on c-sections and dismissing any argument that a vaginal delivery doesn’t kill babies. It makes you look like an extremist who doesn’t believe in vaginal deliveries. I sort of doubt you actually _mean_ that, but that’s how you’re starting to sound. All three of my kids were born vaginally. We are talking about one specific case, not vaginal births in general. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/413 "2011-06-20T17:11:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, what I’m saying is that doctors know better than midwives. That is a relatives statement. It makes no sense to take the opinion of a non-doctor over a doctor. That’s not to say that the doctor can’t be wrong, but the doctor has considerably less chance of being wrong than a non-doctor. However, the midwife may have spent more time with the patient and know the patient’s history and specific circumstances better than the doctor. Doctors are not always superior to other medical professionals. Nobody is perfect. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/414 "2011-06-20T17:11:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > They still know better than non-doctors. The fallibility of doctors does not make it reasonable to ignore them in favor of even _more_ fallible opinions from non-doctors. Competent, well-trained midwives, particularly CNMs, know a hell of a lot, and I wager they know more about pregnancy and labor than doctors that do not specialize in OB/GYN. Here’s a question: would your average oncologist or neuropsych defer to a CNM in an emergency labor situation? Diogenes, how do you reconcile this faith in doctors with the nearly one-in-three rate of c-sections in America? Are you willing to bet that at least half of them were unnecessary? And thus that at least half of those doctors that ordered or okayed them were wrong? Even the ones that pursued court orders? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/415 "2011-06-20T17:15:32Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > However, the midwife may have spent more time with the patient and know the patient’s history and specific circumstances better than the doctor. Doctors are not always superior to other medical professionals. Nobody is perfect. They are always superior to midwives. It’s completely irrelevant how much time she spends with a patient. They still don’t have a medical degree, and are not qualified to override an actual doctor. If they think they have some pertinent information, they can tell the doctor, and let the doctor do the thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/416 "2011-06-20T17:18:57Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > Competent, well-trained midwives, particularly CNMs, know a hell of a lot, and I wager they know more about pregnancy and labor than doctors that do not specialize in OB/GYN. I doubt that very much. > [@](#): > > Here’s a question: would your average oncologist or neuropsych defer to a CNM in an emergency labor situation? I would hope not. > [@](#): > > Diogenes, how do you reconcile this faith in doctors with the nearly one-in-three rate of c-sections in America? Are you willing to bet that at least half of them were unnecessary? And thus that at least half of those doctors that ordered or okayed them were wrong? Even the ones that pursued court orders? It’s not that I have so much faith in doctors as that I have even LESS faith in _non_-doctors. I’m going to gamble on the person with the most training. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/417 "2011-06-20T17:20:09Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > They are always superiopr to midwives. It’s completely irrelevant how much time she spends with a patient. They still don’t have a medical degree, and are not qualified to override an actual doctor. If they think they have some pertinmet information, they can tell the doctor, and let the doctor do the thinking. Last time my CNM friend did this, she got a nasty call from the Illinois Dept. of Public Health chewing her out because one of her patients didn’t get the appropriate treatment for syphillis according to CDC protocols. Whose decision was that? The doctor’s. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/418 "2011-06-20T17:23:34Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > Last time my CNM friend did this, she got a nasty call from the Illinois Dept. of Public Health chewing her out because one of her patients didn’t get the appropriate treatment for syphillis according to CDC protocols. Whose decision was that? The doctor’s. How should I know? I don’t know the details or the responsibilities. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/419 "2011-06-20T17:23:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, what I’m saying is that doctors know better than midwives. But they don’t, actually. They know different things because medical training is not a hierarchy with MDs on the top and laypeople on the bottom. There are areas of expertise, and discounting what mid-wives know and have experienced is not what good doctors do. There are good doctors and bad doctors, just like there are good midwives and bad midwives. Good doctors work with good midwives and vice versa. In the best cases, they are complementary providing the best chance for outcomes and experience for the parents and the child. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/420 "2011-06-20T17:27:02Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > But they don’t, actually. Yes they do. They have all the training and the testing and the qualifications. If midwives knew as much as doctors, they’d be doctors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786.md?page=22)