# Phlosphr, you are a fucking idiot (re: home birth) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 17, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786 "2011-06-17T02:43:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![LilyoftheField](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@LilyoftheField](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilyoftheField)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/501 "2011-06-21T16:20:54Z")
Not to go off on a tangent, but - going off on a tangent here, I am continually amazed at how often posters here actually try to use logic in an argument with DtC. No matter how often this approach fails and often fails spectacularly (‘these bitches’? really?), people still keep trying. Given that dopers are so often prone to be cynical, skeptical and pessimistic, I find it encouraging for the future of mankind, that even here, hope springs eternal. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/502 "2011-06-21T16:22:27Z")
Really? it’s the word “bitch” everybody is offended by now? If I search on your user names with that word, I’ll never find it? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/503 "2011-06-21T16:24:41Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > From one bitch to another, I would like to thank you for taking one for the team, **WhyNot**. Any time, bitch. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/504 "2011-06-21T16:24:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What a reckless, irresponsible policy. That needs to change. What coursework is required to become a Nurse Practitioner? What coursework required to become an NP do you feel is insufficient for prescribing medication that could only be obtained as an MD? Don’t look it up. You’ve declared the policy to be irresponsible already so you should know this. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/505 "2011-06-21T16:25:46Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > What coursework is required to become a Nurse Practitioner? What coursework required to become an NP do you feel is insufficient for prescribing medication that could only be obtained as an MD? > > Don’t look it up. You’ve declared the policy to be irresponsible already so you should know this. You’re right. I retract that. I was wrong and I was embarrassed. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/506 "2011-06-21T16:25:50Z")
> [@](#): > > I would still rather have any doctor present than any nurse. And you’d still be a retard, if you’d choose an oncologist over a CNM. So apparently, you ARE okay with the philosophy of “Hey, it’s your kid, be as irresponsible as your silly beliefs demand.” ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/507 "2011-06-21T16:28:58Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Dio, let’s say you’re interested in playing the drums. You go into the music store and say “hey, I want to learn the drums. Who should I talk to?” The guy behind the counter hands you a flyer for a local drumming tutor. Guy’s a high school graduate who dropped out of college to go touring around the region with some pretty well known bands. Not much formal training, but he’s been a consistent drummer for 20 years locally. You take the flyer and go home. > The next day, you’re talking to a friend, saying you’re interested in learning to play the drums. He says “oh wow, are you in luck! I’m friends with [Yo-Yo Ma](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yo-Yo_Ma) and if you want I can call him up and ask him to give you some lessons on drumming.” > > Which do you choose, and why? Without commenting on the point you’re making, I’ll just say that this particular analogy doesn’t really work. If Yo-Yo Ma wants to teach you the drums, _you pick Yo-Yo Ma._ ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/508 "2011-06-21T16:29:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Really? it’s the word “bitch” everybody is offended by now? If I search on your user names with that word, I’ll never find it? Really? You think it’s the word “bitch” that people are offended by in that statement? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/509 "2011-06-21T16:30:40Z")
Question for those who know about these things…what’s the difference between a Direct Entry Midwife and a Certified Professional Midwife? I have a cousin who is the latter, and I know she doesn’t have a nursing degree. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/510 "2011-06-21T16:31:31Z")
I would gamble with any physician over any non-physician if it really came right down to it, but you’re presenting a false dilemma since the topic isn’t about theoretical cases where a nurse would be preferable to a doctor, but about home births vs hospital births and about whether there’s any good reason to cut off access to an OB during a delivery. These oncologist vs super nurse scenarios are just contrived and not really applicable to the practical choices under discussion. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/511 "2011-06-21T16:32:38Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Question for those who know about these things…what’s the difference between a Direct Entry Midwife and a Certified Professional Midwife? I have a cousin who is the latter, and I know she doesn’t have a nursing degree. I expect it depends on the state. Here in Illinois, neither title is legit. There are only CNM (Certified Nurse Midwives) and lay midwives, which is everyone else no matter what their training, and illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/512 "2011-06-21T16:32:41Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > Without commenting on the point you’re making, I’ll just say that this particular analogy doesn’t really work. If Yo-Yo Ma wants to teach you the drums, _you pick Yo-Yo Ma._ Excellent point. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/513 "2011-06-21T16:33:15Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > And you’d still be a retard, if you’d choose an oncologist over a CNM. So apparently, you ARE okay with the philosophy of “Hey, it’s your kid, be as irresponsible as your silly beliefs demand.” Yeah, I’ve been thinking all the way through this tangent that I hope Dio’s wife has better sense than he does when it comes to choosing health care professionals. Also…I think your average oncologist would be kinda terrified if he or she found themselves in the position of having to deliver a baby. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/514 "2011-06-21T16:35:29Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > Really? You think it’s the word “bitch” that people are offended by in that statement? Really? Apparently so. That’s the word they seized on. What else would it be? I’m assuming they see it as a gender thing, but that’s a gender neutral word, and so is the word “doctor,” for that matter. If anyone thinks it’s a sexist thing for me, it isn’t. I would still want a female doctor over a male CMN. It’s the qualifications that matter to me. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/515 "2011-06-21T16:35:31Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I expect it depends on the state. Here in Illinois, neither title is legit. There are only CNM (Certified Nurse Midwives) and lay midwives, which is everyone else no matter what their training, and illegal. Yeah, she’s in another state and in a very crunchy place where it’s legal. She seems to know what she’s doing but she’s also into homeopathy, so… ---
**Author:** ![LilyoftheField](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@LilyoftheField](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilyoftheField)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/516 "2011-06-21T16:36:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Really? it’s the word “bitch” everybody is offended by now? If I search on your user names with that word, I’ll never find it? Do you really think that it was the word itself more than the context? ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/517 "2011-06-21T16:37:48Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Yeah, well, I’m trying to accept that it’s OK for people to be wrong on the internet. Only having partial success so far (and being wrong in a way that could hurt someone’s baby is of course a special case). and [QUOTE=Rand Rover] Damn, I was hoping that would go to a post by Phlosphr saying he’d talk to his wife about giving birth at the birthing center. Really phlosphr, why don’t you do that? There’d be a big boost in safety for the kid and only a slight decrease in rainbows and unicorns. [/QUOTE] A) What do you have against unicorns? B) One of my favorite comics is one my wife gave me…it’s got a graphic of a stick figure sitting at a chair in front of a computer and it reads: Wife: Are you coming to Bed??? Me: I CAN’T THIS IS IMPORTANT! Wife: What is??? Me: Someone is WRONG on the Internet!!! ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/518 "2011-06-21T16:43:07Z")
> [@Phlosphr](#): > > and > > A) What do you have against unicorns? > > B) One of my favorite comics is one my wife gave me…it’s got a graphic of a stick figure sitting at a chair in front of a computer and it reads: > > Wife: Are you coming to Bed??? > Me: I CAN’T THIS IS IMPORTANT! > Wife: What is??? > Me: Someone is WRONG on the Internet!!! [XKCD.](http://xkcd.com/386/) If I am not mistaken, that’s the very comic **Rand** was referring to. (And good on him, btw. It’s a skill I am lacking.) ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/519 "2011-06-21T16:46:47Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Absolutely! A primate vet would probably be a pretty good choice in an emergency, actually…I’d prefer he not be fucking \*during \*the delivery, though. > [@Dangerosa](#): > > I would as well. You wouldn’t catch me using a direct entry midwife unless we were the only two people trapped on the NYC subway while I was in labor. But I’d choose her over the pizza delivery guy. Thanks guys. I’ll not share the mental image I got from the juxtaposition of “direct entry midwife” and “fucking veterinarian” but… well, yeah, you’ve probably got one now, too. Thanks again! Have a nice day. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/520 "2011-06-21T16:52:14Z")
> [@LilyoftheField](#): > > Do you really think that it was the word itself more than the context? And just to be clear, the “context” here is a 10 page train-wreck where you basically seem married to an idea of what a “nurse” is that hasn’t been true in forty years. There was a time when nurses were about what LPNs are today: people who could provide the most basic medical care but were not qualified to perform procedures. The modern RN is has a much more in-depth training and carries a lot more responsibilities than you seem to be aware. The modern concept of a nurse-practitioner (one type of which is a CNM) is a whole type of medical professional you seem to have missed entirely. These are people with extensive classroom training in a specific medical field. In those specific fields, they have a lot more training, both in the classroom and in the hospital setting, than a doctor that does not share that specialty. When you dismiss them as “bitches”, apparently thinking they have the same level of training as an orderly who put six weeks in at the local community college, it dismisses an awful lot of expertise. It doesn’t help to use a gender-loaded word when describing a field that has long fought a legacy of being diminished because it’s perceived as “less” for being a traditionally female. Please understand, the average oncologist had like ONE CLASS on the entire subject of ob/gyn. They have maybe seen a few babies born, years ago, but have never delivered one themselves. They will have had zero practice on surgery, and certainly would never have sutured the sorts of tearing you see in a birth. They would have no idea what warning signs to look for if things were starting to go wrong, and certainly couldn’t tell the difference between “possibly worrisome” and “OMG OR now!”. How you can insist it would be more logical for such a person to deliver a baby than someone who has had two years of classroom instruction on nothing but ob/gyn and has a several years of on-the-job training in ob/gyn and has delivered many babies themselves and assisted in many others frankly boggles the mind. Please, please, please, if you have a doctor you trust, especially a specialist of some sort, next time you go, ask them if they’d push aside a CNM to deliver a baby. If you don’t believe us, maybe you’ll believe them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786.md?page=27)