# Phlosphr, you are a fucking idiot (re: home birth) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 17, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786 "2011-06-17T02:43:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/61 "2011-06-17T14:47:37Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > Ummm, did you miss the part where I mentioned she has 15 years of experience handling labor and delivery? OK, then let’s either go back 14 years and 11 months and 29 days or say that the friend has been a CPA for 15 years and is now a cashier. It doesn’t change the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/62 "2011-06-17T14:50:09Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Why not drop “nurse”, too, then? They could call themselves “Medical technical specialist category 337-Alpha”. The word “nurse” is perfectly adequate. The word “midwife” just sounds archaic and pseudo-professional to me. This is the 21st century. By the way, are there any male midwives, and if so, are they called midhusbands? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/63 "2011-06-17T14:53:17Z")
The word “nurse” is fully as medieval as the word “midwife”. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/64 "2011-06-17T14:55:07Z")
Have you ever wondered why you feel such an overwhelming need to undermine the correctness of your position by wrapping it in utter douchebaggery? It’s a perfectly cromulent word that happens to make you twitchy. Get over it. Homebirth is dumb, IMO, but certainly no one else’s kid is any of Rand Rover’s concern. That’s why we find him so adorable. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/65 "2011-06-17T14:58:08Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The word “nurse” is perfectly adequate. The word “midwife” just sounds archaic and pseudo-professional to me. This is the 21st century. > > By the way, are there any male midwives, and if so, are they called midhusbands? In the 21st century, the standard nomenclature for the profession is nurse-midwifery, and for the professional, nurse-midwife. Have you even read any of the info others have posted above? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/66 "2011-06-17T14:58:09Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The word “nurse” is perfectly adequate. The word “midwife” just sounds archaic and pseudo-professional to me. This is the 21st century. > > By the way, are there any male midwives, and if so, are they called midhusbands? There are male midwives, as I’ve repeatedly pointed out in both threads. An no, they are not called midhusbands, they are called midwives. Or, in the case of my OB teacher, Mr. D. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/67 "2011-06-17T14:58:20Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > By the way, are there any male midwives, and if so, are they called midhusbands? How can men be nurses when they can’t lactate? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/68 "2011-06-17T15:08:32Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > OK, then let’s either go back 14 years and 11 months and 29 days or say that the friend has been a CPA for 15 years and is now a cashier. It doesn’t change the argument. If you don’t think that ~ 6 years of formal education in nursing, with a specialization in obstetrics and women’s health, and 15 years of experience assisting at births, are relevant to assisting at births, then there’s no point in my wasting my time explaining it to you. But I have to wonder exactly why you think that med school plus a residency would qualify an obstetrician to do the same damn thing. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/69 "2011-06-17T15:10:53Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Why not drop “nurse”, too, then? They could call themselves “Medical technical specialist category 337-Alpha”. Heh, I was about to post basically the same thing, but with more space-age consonants. Like _Homo_-certified mechanic QWZX-34 or something. 😉 Midwife sounds too hippie pagan for **Dio** , but then again as you rightly point out nurse is just as ancient a word, only more common. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/70 "2011-06-17T15:13:33Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > How can men be nurses when they can’t lactate? I didn’t say they couldn’t be midwives, I just asked if they existed. ---
**Author:** ![pbbth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f9ae1b/32.png) [@pbbth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pbbth)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/71 "2011-06-17T15:14:46Z")
> [@](#): > > _ **Rand Rover** _ > > Pbbth (and the other couple of nutters who posted suimilarly), if you put together an actual argument that I’m being a hypocrite (or whatever), then I will respond. Until then I’ll just call your assertions and implications the absolute mindless drivel that they are. Here are a few of your previous quotes that I am talking about: > [@I pit Senator Bunning for killing seniors](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-senator-bunning-for-killing-seniors/530594/102): > > Yes, if the businesses are allowed to compete in a free market. **People should be free to choose the service providers they like best.** > [@I pit Senator Bunning for killing seniors](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-senator-bunning-for-killing-seniors/530594/120): > > I already directly answered this exact question from you upthread. The answer is yes, absolutely, affirmative, YES. **If consumers choose a particular service provider (e.g., a hair stylist, doctor, health insurer, etc.) then that’s the one they think is the best.** > [@Rand Rover: Ass](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/166): > > 1. **This in absolutely no way conflicts with my worldview that people are responsible for their choices. I acknowledge that it’s possible I could be richer if I had made different choices but that’s not a chance I was willing to take**. You approach financial things (and apparently, when you aren’t emotionally invested, medical things) based on the necessity of choice. According to you people should be able to choose their own providers based on what they think meets their personal needs until you don’t agree with their choice, then they are horrible people who need to be told over and over again that their children are going to die. It seems like if you really believed all the “importance of choice” stuff you wouldn’t care that he and his wife want a home birth because it is what they believe is best for them and that seems to be the basis of your entire political philosophy. Otherwise it seems like choice only matters to you when it is saving you a few bucks in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/72 "2011-06-17T15:15:39Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > Heh, I was about to post basically the same thing, but with more space-age consonants. Like _Homo_-certified mechanic QWZX-34 or something. 😉 Midwife sounds too hippie pagan for **Dio** , but then again as you rightly point out nurse is just as ancient a word, only more common. Whatever. It’s all going to be done by computers eventually anyway. You’ll have to call the Geek Squad if something goes wrong. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/73 "2011-06-17T15:15:54Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I didn’t say they couldn’t be midwives, I just asked if they existed. No, none. Next question. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/74 "2011-06-17T15:16:11Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > If you don’t think that ~ 6 years of formal education in nursing, with a specialization in obstetrics and women’s health, and 15 years of experience assisting at births, are relevant to assisting at births, then there’s no point in my wasting my time explaining it to you. But I have to wonder exactly why you think that med school plus a residency would qualify an obstetrician to do the same damn thing. Then you need to re-read my point which doesn’t say that the nursing or the CPA degree has anything to do with it. The point is that those qualifications are not mandatory\* to perform the position. \*certain states exempt ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/75 "2011-06-17T15:18:41Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > No, none. Next question. Thank Christ for that, at least. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/76 "2011-06-17T15:19:36Z")
> [@pbbth](#): > > Here are a few of your previous quotes that I am talking about: > > You approach financial things (and apparently, when you aren’t emotionally invested, medical things) based on the necessity of choice. According to you people should be able to choose their own providers based on what they think meets their personal needs until you don’t agree with their choice, then they are horrible people who need to be told over and over again that their children are going to die. It seems like if you really believed all the “importance of choice” stuff you wouldn’t care that he and his wife want a home birth because it is what they believe is best for them and that seems to be the basis of your entire political philosophy. Otherwise it seems like choice only matters to you when it is saving you a few bucks in the process. Naw, it’s not that. You can support “choice” and still be astounded at the stupid choices people make. Or, to paraphrase Voltaire, Rand disagrees with the choice, but (likely) supports his right to make it. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/77 "2011-06-17T15:23:57Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Then you need to re-read my point which doesn’t say that the nursing or the CPA degree has anything to do with it. The point is that those qualifications are not mandatory\* to perform the position. > \*certain states exempt [Here are the requirements for being licensed as an advanced practice nurse, a classification that includes certified nurse midwives, in Illinois.](http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/068/068013000D04000R.html) See the part where a graduate degree in the relevant speciality is required? [Here is the scope of practice for advanced practice nurses in Illinois.](http://www.ilga.gov/commission/jcar/admincode/068/068013000D04400R.html) Look at all the neat professional medical tasks they can perform! "c) The scope of practice of an advanced practice nurse includes, but is not limited to, each of the following: 1. ``` Advanced nursing patient assessment and diagnosis. ``` 2. ``` Ordering diagnostic and therapeutic tests and procedures, performing those tests and procedures when using health care equipment, and interpreting and using the results of diagnostic and therapeutic tests and procedures ordered by the advanced practice nurse or another health care professional. ``` 3. ``` Ordering treatments, ordering or applying appropriate medical devices, and using nursing, medical, therapeutic, and corrective measures to treat illness and improve health status. ``` 4. ``` Providing palliative and end-of-life care. ``` 5. ``` Providing advanced counseling, patient education, health education, and patient advocacy. ``` 6. ``` Prescriptive authority as defined in Section 65-40 of the Act. ``` 7. ``` Delegating selected nursing activities or tasks to a licensed practical nurse, a registered professional nurse, or other personnel. (Section 65-30 of the Act)" ``` Now explain to me how advanced nursing education is not relevant to performing these tasks, willya? ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/78 "2011-06-17T15:26:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Whatever. It’s all going to be done by computers eventually anyway. You’ll have to call the Geek Squad if something goes wrong. Well, for now we’ve already got the machine that goes _PING_. Can’t have a birth without that. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/79 "2011-06-17T15:28:35Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > No, none. Next question. If you’re being serious, why not? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/80 "2011-06-17T15:29:59Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You were fortunate, that’s all. There were no complications. > > Incidentally, what is the advantage of a midwife over a nurse or a doctor or any other real kind of real medical professional? No, we were prepared. The advantage is that you get complete attention, rather than a couple of minutes of grunting between tee times. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786.md?page=5)