# Phlosphr, you are a fucking idiot (re: home birth) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 17, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786 "2011-06-17T02:43:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/101 "2011-06-17T16:16:28Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > Intervention definitely tends to escalate. So what? The kinds of concerns that **whynot** listed were mostly paranoid nonsense. And word to whynot,. they don’t put the babies in nurseries any more. They leave them in the room. They also don’t give them bottles or do anything else without telling you first. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/102 "2011-06-17T16:19:20Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > Intervention definitely tends to escalate; that’s not contrived. The measures taken to intervene tend to interfere with the natural birth process, and often make further intervention necessary. It can be a slippery slope. Also, you need to chill. Men tend to have an attitude of “strap her down, yank it out” which is pretty counter to both the medical and emotional needs of the mother and baby. I know you’re more open-minded than that, and you might want to study up on it more before spouting off about it. Yeah, interventions sometimes escalate (sometimes they don’t…I was induced twice due pre-eclampsia for my first one and fetal heart distress for my second one. Both times I had an epidural, both time I delivered naturally with no trouble whatsoever). Problems also tend to escalate, and I’d rather escalate to a c-section than to a dead or injured baby. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/103 "2011-06-17T16:20:33Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > So what? The kinds of concerns that **whynot** listed were mostly paranoid nonsense. > > And word to whynot,. they don’t put the babies in nurseries any more. They leave them in the room. They also don’t give them bottles or do anything else without telling you first. Use of things like pitocin or getting an epidural, which are pretty much pushed on you at the hospital, can lead to the natural process not working properly, then the next thing you know, it’s c-section time. That’s so what. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/104 "2011-06-17T16:23:31Z")
That’s paranoid nonsense, like I said. If you don’t want a shot, just say no. They can’t force you. The risk fgrom the shots is substantially less than the risks incurred by isolating the mother from access to emergency care anyway. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/105 "2011-06-17T16:24:19Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Yeah, interventions sometimes escalate (sometimes they don’t…I was induced twice due pre-eclampsia for my first one and fetal heart distress for my second one. Both times I had an epidural, both time I delivered naturally with no trouble whatsoever). Problems also tend to escalate, and I’d rather escalate to a c-section than to a dead or injured baby. Absolutely. I will reiterate, in very large letters and small words, if necessary, that home birth isn’t for everyone, and shouldn’t be undertaken without proper care and preparation. However, the medical establishment, under immense pressure from insurance companies, would just as soon you schedule a c-section rather than have a natural childbirth, without regard to medical necessity, but as a matter of convenience. It’s not necessary in many cases and caveat emptor. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/106 "2011-06-17T16:25:17Z")
Incidentally, what the hell is so eeeeevill about a C-section anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/107 "2011-06-17T16:26:32Z")
Pbbth, you seem to be incapable of making an actual argument , but you are getting close. Please provide a link to the thread where you got those quotes, and I’ll respond to your almost-argument later. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/108 "2011-06-17T16:27:04Z")
It’s not evil, but it is major surgery with all of the potential risks and complications that entails. So if you can avoid that, it’s a plus. I say this as someone who’s had one C-section and two vaginal births, for what that’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/109 "2011-06-17T16:27:16Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > You know, I haven’t read the other thread, but there are plenty of midwives out there who have “actual qualifications”. A good friend of mine, for instance, has a BSN, MSN, and 15+ years of experience dealing with labor, childbirth, and women’s health issues She has passed some really hardcore certification/licensing exams and is now a [Certified Nurse-Midwife.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurse_midwife) She’s participated in more births than the vast majority of new docs out there. So how, exactly, is she not a “real medical professional”? > > Incidentally, she favors home births in appropriate circumstances and is seriously considering a move to Canada, where home birth is accepted practice. One trained nurse is better than an entire team of hospital staff? She can replace a neo-natal ICU? Home births in the US are 0.7% of births and in Canada they are 1.1%, so the comment about home birth being accepted practice in Canada is bullshit. [source](http://truthfrequencynews.com/?p=3454) In Canada the caesarian section rate is somewhat lower than in the US so we don’t have quite as many hysterically anti-caesarian pro-home birth nutters here, plus we have universal health care so no one is making a decision to have a home birth based on cost (home births in the US are 1/3 of the cost of a hospital birth). ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/110 "2011-06-17T16:27:42Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I respect that. But it doesn’t explain why the midwife you selected has given you the impression that it’s not scary as shit when a baby comes out not breathing, grey, floppy, and in need of resuscitation. Babies are not supposed to be born in that condition. Babies sometimes die despite attempts at resuscitation. Babies sometimes have severe birth injury due to lack of oxygen. It’s not acceptable for the birth process to be allowed to progress in a way that puts the child at that kind of risk. Maybe the midwife understands this…I sincerely hope she does. I hope you understand it, too > > ETA: To me, that’s not a “see, things can be managed, it all turned out fine!” story, it’s a “OMG, that poor baby made it through by the skin of its fucking teeth, someone get on their knees and thank the Lord” story. And I feel pretty much the same way about NAF’s birth story as well. This is third hand information being passed…and the story has gotten waaay out of hand. I know the baby only barely made it and yes that scares the shit out of me when I hear stories like that. Frankly, I don’t seek out and read horror stories, but both m y wife and I are in mom\dad clubs - in each there are people who are having home births and people having hospital births. There are 16 dads in my group and zero contention among the methodologies. We are all sharing stories. I’ve heard the good, bad, and ugly in there and so has my wife in her groups. What seems to be happening here is people are not cool with taking a calculated risk with a birthing mother and newborn, and I understand that and even accept the demonizing that is being laid on me. One thing I have not done from the time I wrote the OP is try to change anyone’s mind. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/111 "2011-06-17T16:27:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Incidentally, what the hell is so eeeeevill about a C-section anyway? Well, it is major surgery - it’s not like removing a cyst from your arm. It’s cutting through your abdominal wall, and all the attendant recovery needed. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/112 "2011-06-17T16:28:07Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > Use of things like pitocin or getting an epidural, which are pretty much pushed on you at the hospital, can lead to the natural process not working properly, then the next thing you know, it’s c-section time. That’s so what. I have not experienced hospitals pushing epidurals on people. At my hospital, no one said a thing about it until I asked. My sister had a baby on Tuesday. She went into labor naturally two weeks early, and no one said anything to her about pitocin because she was progressing at a reasonable pace overall. She said she didn’t want an epidural, and no one said boo to her until she was 6 hours into labor and changed her mind. Incidentally, the baby was born via c-section because he ended up being breech. She’s had the baby in the room with her the whole time. A nurse brought a bottle of formula and said it was there if she wanted it (I was there at the time, we just put the bottle in the drawer and forgot about it), and other than that the lactation consultants have been very helpful. Hospitals aren’t what they used to be. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/113 "2011-06-17T16:30:04Z")
\*\*Rand \*\*- if you want to read some things, post #94 may shed some light…but i doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/114 "2011-06-17T16:32:00Z")
> [@Implicit](#): > > One trained nurse is better than an entire team of hospital staff? She can replace a neo-natal ICU? Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said that, nor did my friend. > [@](#): > > Home births in the US are 0.7% of births and in Canada they are 1.1%, so the comment about home birth being accepted practice in Canada is bullshit. [source](http://truthfrequencynews.com/?p=3454) By “accepted practice,” I believe she meant that national health care covers it. I never said anything about relative prevalence. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/115 "2011-06-17T16:32:05Z")
> [@Phlosphr](#): > > This is third hand information being passed…and the story has gotten waaay out of hand. I know the baby only barely made it and yes that scares the shit out of me when I hear stories like that. Frankly, I don’t seek out and read horror stories, but both m y wife and I are in mom\dad clubs - in each there are people who are having home births and people having hospital births. There are 16 dads in my group and zero contention among the methodologies. We are all sharing stories. I’ve heard the good, bad, and ugly in there and so has my wife in her groups. What seems to be happening here is people are not cool with taking a calculated risk with a birthing mother and newborn, and I understand that and even accept the demonizing that is being laid on me. One thing I have not done from the time I wrote the OP is try to change anyone’s mind. Well then, I’ll drop it. The reason I keep bringing it up is that this is the first time you’ve expressed any amount of alarm about that story, and in fact you used it as an example of how problems can be managed and it’s not a big deal. I hope all goes well with the birth, happy Fathering! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/116 "2011-06-17T16:32:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > So what? The kinds of concerns that **whynot** listed were mostly paranoid nonsense. > > And word to whynot,. they don’t put the babies in nurseries any more. They leave them in the room. They also don’t give them bottles or do anything else without telling you first. I’m prepared to believe, that as with so many things you say, that this was your experience and that you believe it is universal experience. I can tell you that it’s not. Less than 6 months ago during my Clinical rotation in OB at St. Mary’s Hospital in Chicago, as in many hospitals still, it was standard practice to take every single infant born to the nursery for a minimum of one hour of “observation”. This entirely misses the “quiet, alert” stage after birth when babies latch with eager instinct and mothers begin the first stage of postnatal inspection and bonding (please note that I do not claim that mothers and infants will never bond if they don’t do it just after birth, but there is a period in which mothers naturally visually and tactilely inspect their newborns and the newborns make great eye contact that happens in the first hour after birth. This isn’t hippie nonsense, it’s straight out of my OB textbook.) Most were in there for about three hours before being returned to their mothers. Many were in the nursery more than not for their entire stay, even without medical indication. During this time, they were swaddled and left in open beds without interaction or contact other than feeding and changing, (ETA: along with a 5 minute nursing assessment once a shift.) > [@](#): > > That’s paranoid nonsense, like I said. If you don’t want a shot, just say no. They can’t force you. The risk fgrom the shots is substantially less than the risks incurred by isolating the mother from access to emergency care anyway. Again, not entirely true. OB is the one area of hospital medicine where there are interventions which a patient may not legally refuse. The reason for this is that courts have determined that the state has an interest in protecting the life and well-being of the fetus. While it’s highly unlikely that anyone would be forced to have an epidural against her will, A) you really underestimate the emotional vulnerability of women in labor, and some nurses and doctors do take advantage of that to bully people and B) other interventions, like c-sections and blood replacement certainly do take place against the patient’s wishes sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/117 "2011-06-17T16:37:23Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I have not experienced hospitals pushing epidurals on people. At my hospital, no one said a thing about it until I asked. My sister had a baby on Tuesday. She went into labor naturally two weeks early, and no one said anything to her about pitocin because she was progressing at a reasonable pace overall. She said she didn’t want an epidural, and no one said boo to her until she was 6 hours into labor and changed her mind. Incidentally, the baby was born via c-section because he ended up being breech. She’s had the baby in the room with her the whole time. A nurse brought a bottle of formula and said it was there if she wanted it (I was there at the time, we just put the bottle in the drawer and forgot about it), and other than that the lactation consultants have been very helpful. > > Hospitals aren’t what they used to be. This is essentially the experience we had with all our deliveies as well. I haven’t seen those drug-pushing, C-section pimping doctors that the home birthers are taking about. Now the medical costs - that I can understand. That’s why we need UHC. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/118 "2011-06-17T16:38:15Z")
From my friend the CNM - she may have more info later: "Am in clinic at the mo, this is the best source for pro-midwife care; Cochrane Reviews are the gold standard for evidence-based practice and most in the medical community honor their conclusions (they generally do large, meta-analyses of medical issues), [http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/o/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD004667/frame.html](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/o/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD004667/frame.html) Doulas are only labor support personnel and have no medical license whatsoever. Certified nurse midwives (CNMs, what I am) are trained obstetric providers with a Master’s degree; they are licensed to provide gynecological, prenatal and family planning care to all low-risk women. Certified Midwives (CMs) have the equivalent of a 2-4 year vocational degree; they learn their job on the job, like an apprentice. They legally do not have the right to care for women in all states (IL is one of them that bars CMs from practice)." ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/119 "2011-06-17T16:40:26Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Well then, I’ll drop it. The reason I keep bringing it up is that this is the first time you’ve expressed any amount of alarm about that story, and in fact you used it as an example of how problems can be managed and it’s not a big deal. > > I hope all goes well with the birth, happy Fathering! 🙂 I get it, and to be honest that is not the easiest thread to manage, so much going on, on multiple levels. I’m tired. I was also informed that I’d better catch up on sleep as there is not going to be a lot of it very soon! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/120 "2011-06-17T16:41:06Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I’m prepared to believe, that as with so many things you say, that this was your experience and that you believe it is universal experience. > > I can tell you that it’s not. I’m not buying it. It’s not just my experience with thre different deliveries, my wife’s mother is a (recently retired) neonatal nurse. I know what the practices are these days. The concerns you’re talking about are exaggerated. > [@](#): > > Again, not entirely true. OB is the one area of hospital medicine where there are interventions which a patient may not legally refuse. The reason for this is that courts have determined that the state has an interest in protecting the life and well-being of the fetus. While it’s highly unlikely that anyone would be forced to have an epidural against her will, A) you really underestimate the emotional vulnerability of women in labor, and some nurses and doctors do take advantage of that to bully people and B) other interventions, like c-sections and blood replacement certainly do take place against the patient’s wishes sometimes. If the life of the baby is at stake, then the parents _shouldn’t_ be allowed to refuse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786.md?page=7)