# Phlosphr, you are a fucking idiot (re: home birth) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 17, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786 "2011-06-17T02:43:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/121 "2011-06-17T16:41:27Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I’m prepared to believe, that as with so many things you say, that this was your experience and that you believe it is universal experience. > > I can tell you that it’s not. Less than 6 months ago during my Clinical rotation in OB at St. Mary’s Hospital in Chicago, as in many hospitals still, it was standard practice to take every single infant born to the nursery for a minimum of one hour of “observation”. This entirely misses the “quiet, alert” stage after birth when babies latch with eager instinct and mothers begin the first stage of postnatal inspection and bonding (please note that I do not claim that mothers and infants will never bond if they don’t do it just after birth, but there is a period in which mothers naturally visually and tactilely inspect their newborns and the newborns make great eye contact that happens in the first hour after birth. This isn’t hippie nonsense, it’s straight out of my OB textbook.) I wouldn’t take St. Mary’s as the vanguard of modern obstetrical care! 🙂 But seriously, I don’t consider that acceptable, I think all hospitals should allow mother and baby to stay together unless there’s some legitimate reason not to. But that being said, although I realize that the “quiet alert” phase exists, and it’s not hippie nonsense, did your OB textbook say what the _long term_ (or even the short term) effects on bonding are? > [@](#): > > Most were in there for about three hours before being returned to their mothers. Many were in the nursery more than not for their entire stay, even without medical indication. During this time, they were swaddled and left in open beds without interaction or contact other than feeding and changing, (ETA: along with a 5 minute nursing assessment once a shift.) That is astounding to me. In my case and my sister’s the babies were left with us and not a word was said about keeping them in the nursery. I’m not sure they would have done it even if I’d asked. I definitely think that there’s a benefit to finding a hospital who gives you autonomy in this regard, that is not something I find acceptable. But it also doesn’t mean it can’t be found in a hospital setting. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/122 "2011-06-17T16:42:04Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > From my friend the CNM - she may have more info later: > > "Am in clinic at the mo, this is the best source for pro-midwife care; Cochrane Reviews are the gold standard for evidence-based practice and most in the medical community honor their conclusions (they generally do large, meta-analyses of medical issues), > > [http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/o/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD004667/frame.html](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/o/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD004667/frame.html) > > Doulas are only labor support personnel and have no medical license whatsoever. Certified nurse midwives (CNMs, what I am) are trained obstetric providers with a Master’s degree; they are licensed to provide gynecological, prenatal and family planning care to all low-risk women. Certified Midwives (CMs) have the equivalent of a 2-4 year vocational degree; they learn their job on the job, like an apprentice. They legally do not have the right to care for women in all states (IL is one of them that bars CMs from practice)." Great source, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/123 "2011-06-17T16:44:07Z")
Yeah, I’m not buying that either. Our babies never left the room. That’s standard now. They get the baby onto the mom’s chest as soon as they clean the slime off. If **whynot** saw that happen, it’s the exception, not the rule. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/124 "2011-06-17T16:47:46Z")
I shouldn’t have made that crack about St. Mary’s, I’ve not heard anything bad about theml (my mother-in-law was an RN and worked there). I just tend to think of Catholic hospitals as being a bit old-fashioned, but in reality, that’s not true. I think it’s part of Resurrection Health Care now, and I’m actually pretty surprised that is their policy with newborns. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/125 "2011-06-17T16:50:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Yeah, I’m not buying that either. Our babies never left the room. That’s standard now. They get the baby onto the mom’s chest as soon as they clean the slime off. I gave birth in 2004 and 2007 at Ohio State University Medical Center here in Columbus. Their protocol both times was to immediately remove the baby to an “observation nursery” for a minimum of one hour post-birth. When this happened with my daughter in 2004, I wasn’t expecting it, and agreed without really thinking. I dispatched my husband to go along with the baby. He was not permitted to go into the observation nursery and had to watch from outside the glass. It was four full hours until I got my daughter back, and that was with repeated requests to please have the baby brought back to me. In 2007, I was forewarned due to my prior experience, and made sure to tell my OB that I wanted to at least try the first breastfeeding before the baby was removed to the observation nursery. I also had a doula with me. With their support, it was no problem to hold off the “observation nursery” until after I’d had a chance to hold the baby, nurse the baby, etc. After about 45 minutes had passed, my son fell asleep and I gladly sent him off for “observation” for an hour or so. Much better experience- because I was forewarned. Saying that baby-friendly practices are “standard” is misleading. I am absolutely not anti-hospital in the slightest but if anyone thinks that every hospital is going to practice the baby-friendly procedures mentioned in this thread without question (rooming in, no bottlefeeding, etc) they are in danger of facing a very unpleasant surprise if they happen to get a hospital like OSUMC instead. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/126 "2011-06-17T16:53:20Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > You know who believes in homebirths in pursuit of deep spiritual connections between mother and child, and promotes it heavily? > > Scientoligists, that’s who. Save your breath, he already drank the koolaid. Save your efforts for those who can still hear. > > Oh, and say a little prayer for the wife and child, they may well need it. I am SO glad I’m not the only one who got this vibe from this: [QUOTE=Phlosphr] John, this is a tough question that has - in our case - spiritual connotations that I don’t really like to chat about on open boards, because it leaves the doors open to criticism of spiritual beliefs and that is generally never a good thing. What I will say, is that the mind\body connection between mother and child is very strong, and some believe that the chemical cocktails floating around the mother and baby’s brains at the time of birth are extremely powerful and are the foundation of an inner spiritual connection between mother and baby. Again I hesitate to talk too much about it because many simply call that kind of thing “foo-foo talk”. Yes, I’ve heard that before. And with the hostility this thread is bringing up I don’t want to open too many more cans of worms! [/QUOTE] Let’s see, you’ve got religious beliefs you don’t want to talk about because they’d be mocked on this board. . . and birth has spiritual connotations that are a direct relation to the “mind body” connection of the baby and mom. [QUOTE=[Church of Scientology International – Response on Scientology & Dianetics and Childbirth – Scientology Parent](http://www.scientologyparent.com/silent-birth/church-of-scientology-international-response-on-scientology-dianetics-and-childbirth)] Silent birth means creating a calm birthing environment, without those in the presence of mother and child talking. The reason for this is to protect both mother and child from adverse spiritual effects of the birth experience. \ It [Dianetics] explains that what is said around a person when in pain and unconscious stores in a part of the mind—called the reactive mind— which is always recording. Those recordings have an effect on a person’s spiritual and emotional well-being and can even cause up to 70% of man’s physical ills, which are psychosomatic. [/QUOTE] So, **Phlosphr** : are you a Scientologist? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/127 "2011-06-17T16:54:15Z")
Ok, so research the hopsital then. I still think that’s the exception ot the rule. Why not just tell them no anyway? That’s what I would have done. They wouldn’t have gotten MY baby out of the room. ---
**Author:** ![Vihaga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Vihaga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vihaga)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/128 "2011-06-17T16:55:01Z")
> [@Phlosphr](#): > > Busy day, but I have some time to look up one thing for **Rand Rover** : Regarding the meta-study you linked to, seems many in the science field feel it is severely flawed. This [article](http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110318/full/news.2011.162.html)also mentioned the _"The scientific debate about home birth has become extremely polarized and politicized, "._ . Did you actually read the Nature commentary you cite here? Two different groups repeated the analysis, and neither of them found results that changed the initial findings, other than for the prematurity risk. In fact, one of them found that the home birth risk was larger than in the original study! You are not making your case here. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/129 "2011-06-17T16:57:47Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Why not just tell them no anyway? That’s what I would have done. They wouldn’t have gotten MY baby out of the room. I was in the process of fainting from blood loss at the time. I’m sure you would have managed to overcome this minor setback to have an argument with the labor and delivery staff anyway, but I am just not as tough as you. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/130 "2011-06-17T17:01:02Z")
Well, that probably wasn’t the best time to attempt to bond anyway, then. 😉 I’m not getting all the “the eeeeeeeeevil doctors want to pump you full of drugs and cut your baby out!!11eleventy!!” thing. My daughter was born 20 years ago in a perfectly run-of-the-mill suburban hospital with no interventions, no drugs but a bit of demerol, and she stayed with me in my room. If you don’t trust your OB, they’re not the right OB. Find another one. And **An Arky** , home birth may or may not be “reasonable”, but it is _absolutely_ inherently more dangerous, and asserting otherwise is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/131 "2011-06-17T17:04:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If the life of the baby is at stake, then the parents _shouldn’t_ be allowed to refuse. Determining when the life of the baby is at stake is largely a matter of opinion. Educated opinion, true, but there are lots of cases where a doctor thought a c-section was needed and the woman successfully delivered vaginally anyhow. Plus, the baby’s not always the most important person in the room. _shrugs_ One of the most famous cases of a forced c-section was a Nigerian woman who was in a Chicago hospital. She was only in the US temporarily, and knew that when she returned to Nigeria, a c-section scar would be lifethreatening to her in a later labor. The risk of uterine rupture was high in Nigeria, and she knew that. She knew her current fetus would probably die without the c-section, and she was okay with that to preserve her life and the lives of her future children. She was restrained with 4 point restraints and given a forced c-section anyhow. That’s pretty fucked up, if you ask me. > [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I wouldn’t take St. Mary’s as the vanguard of modern obstetrical care! 🙂 Oh, neither would I, after being there! But yeah, that’s what’s happening there. Names named. Fuck the innocent. 😉 And, no, it’s not really considered a “bad” hospital, although they’re not equipped for very premature or sick babies like Northwestern and Evanston North Shore are. It’s pretty middle of the road - somewhere between Stroger and Northwestern in repute. And really, if you think about it, MOST hospitals aren’t the vanguard, by definition. We’re spoiled for choices here where we live, but in most of the US, you have one, maybe two hospitals to choose from. Most places aren’t full of high-tech, urban hospitals committed to the newest and latest information with the newest machines that go Ping! > [@](#): > > But that being said, although I realize that the “quiet alert” phase exists, and it’s not hippie nonsense, did your OB textbook say what the _long term_ (or even the short term) effects on bonding are? Short term, we see moms spending more time in the passive “Taking In” phase, rather than moving to the active “Taking Hold” phase. I’ve not seen any studies about long term effects. > [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I shouldn’t have made that crack about St. Mary’s, from all accounts it’s a fine hospital (my mother-in-law was an RN and worked there). I think it’s part of Resurrection Health Care now, and I’m actually pretty surprised that is their policy with newborns. Yes, they are part of Resurrection. And I should point out that there’s a difference between official hospital policy and actual hospital practice. I’m only reporting on what I saw nurses actually \*doing \*on the floor and was told what to do as a nursing student; I never read the handbook to see what the actual Resurrection Policies are. Policies, to me, are less important than what actually happens. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/132 "2011-06-17T17:05:01Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Well, that probably wasn’t the best time to attempt to bond anyway, then. Sorry; in the interest of posting a pithy one-liner, I left out some detail. Basically, I gave birth, everything was OK, they showed me the kid, I asked if I could breastfeed, they said, “No, we need to do the observation nursery.” I was feeling a little bit light-headed and still kind of trippy from the delivery, so I said, “ok,” not really realizing that I was agreeing to my kid being hauled off for the next four hours. I had the vague idea that they were going to go run a blood sugar check and bring her right back. Then as soon as she was out of the room the nurse wanted me to get into a wheelchair to be transported to a “recovery room”. I tried this, and promptly fainted. They pumped some fluids into my IV, I woke up a minute later, and was allowed to stay in my current room since I was apparently too much of a pussy to handle wheelchair transport. At that point, felt fine, would have liked to have seen my baby, and was wondering where the hell she and my husband were. Spent the next hour or so alone in my room without even any nursing staff. (I assume someone would have come in if I’d rung a call button or something.) F---- Would Not Recommend. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/133 "2011-06-17T17:05:28Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I was in the process of fainting from blood loss at the time. I’m sure you would have managed to overcome this minor setback to have an argument with the labor and delivery staff anyway, but I am just not as tough as you. Well if you were on your back, you were on your back. I didn’t mean you personally should have lept of of bed or anything, but was your husband there to advocate for you? I get how it is when it’s the first time, and you’re drained, and you’re not tracking, and you just go along with whatever they say, though. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/134 "2011-06-17T17:06:59Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > Use of things like pitocin or getting an epidural, which are pretty much pushed on you at the hospital, can lead to the natural process not working properly, then the next thing you know, it’s c-section time. That’s so what. Oh, I wish! I had to beg for my epidural. I had to beg for medication. (I didn’t need pitocin, but since my OB nurse had decided I wasn’t in labor at all and was going to go home and this was false labor, I had other issues). And my birth story isn’t that unusual in the last decade or so. The tide has turned at MANY hospitals. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/135 "2011-06-17T17:07:23Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I was in the process of fainting from blood loss at the time. I’m sure you would have managed to overcome this minor setback to have an argument with the labor and delivery staff anyway, but I am just not as tough as you. Not surprising he was in good shape, given that is was his wife who had the baby, not him, right? 😉 But seriously, I generally agree with Dio on this topic, but I would say the best time to get educated about this is prior, as you pointed out. To me, getting educated means having a happy, pleasant, safe hospital experience, not to run screaming from all hospitals in favor of something less safe. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/136 "2011-06-17T17:10:06Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Determining when the life of the baby is at stake is largely a matter of opinion. All urgent medical decisions are matter of professional opinion. the parents are not qualified to have an opinion, and it would be senseless to let them overrid professionals. > [@](#): > > Plus, the baby’s not always the most important person in the room. _shrugs_ Fucking wrong, obviously. > [@](#): > > One of the most famous cases of a forced c-section was a Nigerian woman who was in a Chicago hospital. She was only in the US temporarily, and knew that when she returned to Nigeria, a c-section scar would be lifethreatening to her in a later labor. The risk of uterine rupture was high in Nigeria, and she knew that. She knew her current fetus would probably die without the c-section, and she was okay with that to preserve her life and the lives of her future children. She was restrained with 4 point restraints and given a forced c-section anyhow. > > That’s pretty fucked up, if you ask me. I think it was completely correct. She was crazy. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/137 "2011-06-17T17:11:28Z")
Yes, agreed. It just gets my back up when I see people claiming that hospitals have all changed and do not involve…well, experiences like the one I had. 😛 I will agree that in general hospitals are vastly improved from the “bad old days” and that homebirthing out of fear of hospitals is silly. But you should always go in prepared, and have a good advocate with you. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/138 "2011-06-17T17:11:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m not buying it. It’s not just my experience with thre different deliveries, my wife’s mother is a (recently retired) neonatal nurse. I know what the practices are these days. The concerns you’re talking about are exaggerated. > > If the life of the baby is at stake, then the parents _shouldn’t_ be allowed to refuse. We Minnesotans do live in a pretty crunchy granola state when it comes to birthing centers. It is possible that it is not universal. At the same time, it certainly isn’t universal that OBs are delivering between tee times, babies are given bottles, babies spend their time in nurseries, and medication and interventions are pushed. ---
**Author:** ![Vihaga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Vihaga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vihaga)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/139 "2011-06-17T17:12:08Z")
I disagree about the baby being the most important person. In fact, I think the mother’s health should always supersede the baby’s, because the baby’s not even really sentient yet, but it’s not my call for other people, obviously. What’s the basis behind your argument that the baby is the most important person in the room? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786/140 "2011-06-17T17:16:05Z")
It’s the most vulnerable and helpless. How often is there actually going to be a choice between the mother and baby in a delivery room anyway, and how does home birthing remove that potential? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phlosphr-you-are-a-fucking-idiot-re-home-birth/585786.md?page=8)