# "Photography" and "Biography" - Not rhymes, but what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 27, 2015, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photography-and-biography-not-rhymes-but-what/726298 "2015-07-27T05:35:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HowSoonIsThen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@HowSoonIsThen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HowSoonIsThen)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photography-and-biography-not-rhymes-but-what/726298/1 "2015-07-27T05:35:30Z")
These two words were listed in a online rhyming dictionary, though they’re not what I would consider a rhyme because their classification as a rhyme comes from sharing identical sound instead of a similar sound. Maybe I’m wrong. But if I’m right and they’re not rhymes, is there a name for words that end with the same exact syllables? ---
**Author:** ![ThisSpaceForRent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisspaceforrent/32/345_2.png) [@ThisSpaceForRent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisSpaceForRent)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photography-and-biography-not-rhymes-but-what/726298/2 "2015-07-27T05:41:32Z")
They rhyme, but not in the traditional sense;think HipHop. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photography-and-biography-not-rhymes-but-what/726298/3 "2015-07-27T05:52:01Z")
That could be “consonance”: > [@](#): > > Consonance is the repetition of consonant sounds either inside the lines of a poem or at the end of a line. “Norm, the worm, took the garden by a storm this morn.” From [here](http://www.lilpoets.org/Assonance_and_Consonance.html). ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photography-and-biography-not-rhymes-but-what/726298/4 "2015-07-27T06:08:31Z")
Rhymes _do_ share identical sounds. > [@](#): > > A rhyme is a repetition of similar sounds (or the same sound) in two or more words, most often in the final syllables of lines in poems and songs. _With rue my heart is laden For golden friends I had For many a rose-lipt maiden And many a light-foot lad. A.E. Houseman_ There is this : > [@](#): > > Half rhyme or slant rhyme, sometimes called near-rhyme or lazy rhyme, is a type of rhyme formed by words with similar but not identical sounds. In most instances, either the vowel segments are different while the consonants are identical, or vice versa. This type of rhyme is also called approximate rhyme, inexact rhyme, imperfect rhyme (in contrast to perfect rhyme), off rhyme, analyzed rhyme, or suspended rhyme. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photography-and-biography-not-rhymes-but-what/726298/5 "2015-07-27T06:08:53Z")
How is that not a rhyme? A “perfect rhyme” is one in which the stressed vowel sound and following subsequent sounds are identical. In this case, the stress falls on the antepenultimate syllable, and both words satisfy the above conditions. It’s a dactylic perfect rhyme, as far as I can see. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photography-and-biography-not-rhymes-but-what/726298/6 "2015-07-27T06:20:38Z")
Actually, [triple rhyme](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/triple+rhyme) might be a better term for it. But, yes, it’s a rhyme, and a full rhyme at that. ---
**Author:** ![HowSoonIsThen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@HowSoonIsThen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HowSoonIsThen)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photography-and-biography-not-rhymes-but-what/726298/7 "2015-07-27T06:35:19Z")
Well, I guess I was wrong. I thought a rhyme was more than just exact repetition. If nothing else I learnt something today. Just for clarification, though, I’ll explain my misunderstanding. To use Jimbuff’s example, maiden and laden contain an identical sound (den) but I would consider the first syllable to be what makes it a rhyme. If they didn’t sound similar then you would just be repeating the den sound, the equivalent to rhyming a word with the same word. I wouldn’t have thought that was a rhyme. EDIT: By my logic: norm and warm rhyme (same sound but different first letter). Normcore and warmcore rhyme (only one of those is made up). Hardcore and metalcore don’t. But the more I think about, even if I was right, the two words fit my definition anyway. I just have to look at the rhyme not as “graphy” and “graphy”, but “tography” and “ography”. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photography-and-biography-not-rhymes-but-what/726298/8 "2015-07-27T06:49:37Z")
By this definition, any word rhymes with itself. But using the same word to rhyme with itself in two lines of poetry is commonly seen as a poetic flaw of some sort, isn’t it? I’m _almost_ sure I’ve seen a specific term for the kind of rhyme OP is talking about, but it’s escaped me in my demented old age. Anybody? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photography-and-biography-not-rhymes-but-what/726298/9 "2015-07-27T06:50:24Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > By this definition, any word rhymes with itself. But using the same word to rhyme with itself in two lines of poetry is commonly seen as a poetic flaw of some sort, isn’t it? > > I’m _almost_ sure I’ve seen a specific term for the kind of rhyme OP is talking about, but it’s escaped me in my demented old age. Anybody? Maybe you’re thinking of “feminine rhyme”? ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photography-and-biography-not-rhymes-but-what/726298/10 "2015-07-27T14:07:09Z")
I’m not sure that there are any hard and fast rules about rhyme. If it sound as if it rhymes, and poetry really needs to be read aloud, then it rhymes. If it doesn’t it doesn’t. It can still be poetry of course. Popular music has an endless choice of good, bad and indifferent. My favourite is by Gilbert O’Sullivan in Nothing Rhymed. > [@](#): > > Nothing old, nothing new, nothing ventured > Nothing gained, nothing still-born or lost, > Nothing further than proof nothing wilder than youth > Nothing older than time, nothing sweeter than wine > Nothing physically, recklessly, hopelessly blind > Nothing I couldn’t say > Nothing why 'cause today > Nothing rhymed [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/MtoefxZGR6U/hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEmCOADEOgC8quKqQMa8AEB-AG-AoAChgKKAgwIABABGDogXChlMA8=&rs=AOn4CLCxZtcMMJRIA5n4OjOoqXK1eBOYhw "Nothing rhymed ( with lyrics ) - Gilbert O' Sullivan") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtoefxZGR6U) ---
**Author:** ![Cartoonacy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/848f3c/32.png) [@Cartoonacy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartoonacy)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photography-and-biography-not-rhymes-but-what/726298/11 "2015-07-27T18:47:21Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > A “perfect rhyme” is one in which the stressed vowel sound and following subsequent sounds are identical. > [@Senegoid](#): > > By this definition, any word rhymes with itself. But using the same word to rhyme with itself in two lines of poetry is commonly seen as a poetic flaw of some sort, isn’t it? Then perhaps the definition should be that two words rhyme if they sound identical from the stressed vowel to the end, but sound different prior to the stressed vowel. ---
**Author:** ![Cartoonacy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/848f3c/32.png) [@Cartoonacy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartoonacy)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photography-and-biography-not-rhymes-but-what/726298/12 "2015-07-27T18:55:14Z")
> [@HowSoonIsThen](#): > > Hardcore and metalcore don’t. > > But the more I think about, even if I was right, the two words fit my definition anyway. I just have to look at the rhyme not as “graphy” and “graphy”, but “tography” and “ography”. They don’t rhyme in Pulakamell’s definition either: “ardcore” and “etalcore.” The line is drawn at the _vowel sound_ in the stressed syllable. For “photography” and “biography,” the stressed _vowel_ is “o,” so it’s “ography,” not “graphy” or “tography.” ---
**Author:** ![Cartoonacy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/848f3c/32.png) [@Cartoonacy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartoonacy)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photography-and-biography-not-rhymes-but-what/726298/13 "2015-07-27T18:58:46Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Popular music has an endless choice of good, bad and indifferent. My favourite is by Gilbert O’Sullivan in Nothing Rhymed. Barbara Mandrell used to drive me crazy. I love her voice, but the lyrics of her songs _almost_ rhymed, but not quite. There was just enough difference to grate on my nerves, like fingernails on a chalkboard. _[Wish You Were Here](http://www.metrolyrics.com/wish-you-were-here-lyrics-barbara-mandrell.html)_ was arguably the worst offender. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photography-and-biography-not-rhymes-but-what/726298/14 "2015-07-27T19:05:49Z")
> [@Cartoonacy](#): > > Then perhaps the definition should be that two words rhyme if they sound identical from the stressed vowel to the end, but sound different prior to the stressed vowel. Yeah, that’s what I meant. Otherwise, it’s an identity or identity rhyme. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_of\_Words](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f6c823/32.png) [@Jack\_of\_Words](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_of_Words)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photography-and-biography-not-rhymes-but-what/726298/15 "2015-07-27T19:09:01Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > A “perfect rhyme” is one in which the stressed **vowel sound** and following subsequent sounds are identical. > [@Cartoonacy](#): > > They don’t rhyme in Pulakamell’s definition either: “ardcore” and “etalcore.” The line is drawn at the _ **vowel sound** _ in the stressed syllable. My bolding, twice. There is so much agreement in the world and people still want to argue… ---
**Author:** ![Cartoonacy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/848f3c/32.png) [@Cartoonacy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartoonacy)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photography-and-biography-not-rhymes-but-what/726298/16 "2015-07-27T21:18:50Z")
I wasn’t arguing with Pulykamell (sorry for the misspelling). I was emphasizing the part of the definition that HowSoonIsThen appeared to have missed. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photography-and-biography-not-rhymes-but-what/726298/17 "2015-07-27T23:51:46Z")
> [@HowSoonIsThen](#): > > Just for clarification, though, I’ll explain my misunderstanding. To use Jimbuff’s example, maiden and laden contain an identical sound (den) but I would consider the first syllable to be what makes it a rhyme. In this case, yes. Generally a proper rhyme will include the accented syllables of the words, or in cases where a rhyming element comprises multiple small words, the natural stress in the phrase should match up to the accent or stress in the other line. _den_ and _den_ in _JimBuff’s_ example isn’t a rhyme at all, since in many if not most dialects the “e” is barely articulated if not eliminated altogether (e.g. to me “maid’n” and “laid’n” would seem a more phonetically accurate way of spelling those words. YMMV by a continent or two since I note your use of “learnt”, betraying a non-North American dialect.) The Wiki [article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhyme) on the subject provides examples for numerous categories of rhymes. However, the article doesn’t seem to mention another important article, which is that rhymes comprising different parts of speech are usually more pleasing or satisfying than those that don’t. So going back to **JimBuff’s** example, you’ll notice that, in both alternating couplets, the two rhyming elements (“maiden”/“laden” and “lad”/“had”) each comprise a noun and a verb respectively. By this standard, given that any two “-ography” words are almost certainly both nouns, they will result in a poor and esthetically unsatisfying rhyme. I don’t have a cite for this other than having read it in a textbook[sup]1[/sup] many years ago. I may still have the book somewhere around here, and if so I will provide a citation. The discussion goes on to describe rhymes comprising phonetically identical, but different words or sequences, e.g. “heard / herd”, “led” / “lead” (the metal), or even “ice cream” / “I scream”. This, the author said, was perhaps the highest and best type of rhyme. In this context, the requirement of different words excludes word pairs in which the two words belong to different parts of speech only because a noun got verbed or vice versa-- like _dust_ or _police_. [sup]1[/sup]This was a small volume containing the General Prologue of the Canterbury Tales in addition to a very short grammar of Middle English and a brief discourse on the principles of rhyme and meter. ---
**Author:** ![HowSoonIsThen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@HowSoonIsThen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HowSoonIsThen)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photography-and-biography-not-rhymes-but-what/726298/18 "2015-07-28T02:29:02Z")
> [@Cartoonacy](#): > > I wasn’t arguing with Pulykamell (sorry for the misspelling). I was emphasizing the part of the definition that HowSoonIsThen appeared to have missed. I was referring to my own definition in that example, not pulykamell’s. Essentially, I was conceding that even if you were to use my definition of rhyme, they still rhyme. I’d just been looking at it the wrong way. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photography-and-biography-not-rhymes-but-what/726298/19 "2015-07-28T12:14:47Z")
One of the definitions of [end ryhme](http://www.yourdictionary.com/end-rhyme) is > [@](#): > > A word that rhymes with another in that it is pronounced identically with the other word from the vowel in its stressed syllable to the end. Which would cover the biography/photography question in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Cartoonacy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/848f3c/32.png) [@Cartoonacy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartoonacy)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photography-and-biography-not-rhymes-but-what/726298/20 "2015-07-28T15:10:50Z")
> [@HowSoonIsThen](#): > > I was referring to my own definition in that example, not pulykamell’s. Essentially, I was conceding that even if you were to use my definition of rhyme, they still rhyme. I’d just been looking at it the wrong way. Oh, okay. I thought you were saying that “hardcore” and “metalcore” rhyme under Pulykamell’s definition but not yours. I was pointing out that they don’t rhyme under either. Sorry about that. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photography-and-biography-not-rhymes-but-what/726298.md?page=2)