# Photos of Coffins in the Cargo Plane **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 22, 2007, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-coffins-in-the-cargo-plane/409038 "2007-06-22T18:57:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-coffins-in-the-cargo-plane/409038/1 "2007-06-22T18:57:31Z")
From the [Whence the patriotic firefighter fetish?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=425891) thread, since **tomndebb** requested us to take it to a new thread. So: should photos of the flag-draped coffins of those who have died overseas in the line of duty be allowed, or not? Feel free to link back to posts in the original thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-coffins-in-the-cargo-plane/409038/2 "2007-06-22T19:18:22Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] From the [Whence the patriotic firefighter fetish?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=425891) thread, since **tomndebb** requested us to take it to a new thread. So: should photos of the flag-draped coffins of those who have died overseas in the line of duty be allowed, or not? Feel free to link back to posts in the original thread. [/QUOTE] Yes, to the extent that they do not violate the privacy of the family involved. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-coffins-in-the-cargo-plane/409038/3 "2007-06-22T19:22:20Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Yes, to the extent that they do not violate the privacy of the family involved. [/QUOTE] Can there be a violation of privacy if the individual coffins cannot be identified? I say no, the fact that individuals cannot be associated with any one coffin precludes any possibility of the families’ rights being violated. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-coffins-in-the-cargo-plane/409038/4 "2007-06-22T19:27:00Z")
**Bricker** s’ position is my position, as well, to a certain extent. I don’t wish to offend any of the grieving families, however, identifying a particular soldier in a cargo hold full of flag-draped coffins without some help would be as near to impossible as could be. The larger issue is the (initial) government censorship of these images, not what anybody thinks of the pictures themselves. If we’re worried about offending families of victims, then we don’t show a particular victim in an identifiable way. A flag-draped coffin is no different than a passing car on a freeway. If you’re not showing the driver or the license plate, it should be fair game. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-coffins-in-the-cargo-plane/409038/5 "2007-06-22T19:27:26Z")
From the original thread: **Loach** @7: > [@](#): > > The military does not allow photographs of the coffins taken when they are basically cargo in an airplane. This is out of respect to the families. They try to have as much respect as possible for the remains but it basically a cargo box in the cargo compartment of a transport plane. Me, @9: > [@](#): > > Maybe that’s what they say, but if nobody can tell which casket is which, and they’re draped in carefully-wrapped flags even on the plane, based on those few photos that have been smuggled out, so it’s not a question of showing coffins stacked hither and yon in a disrespectful fashion, exactly what difference does it make to the families? I could see it if there was some jarring and disrespectful-appearing aspect to the transport, but from all indications that’s not the case. I also said that while the photos are not that important in and of themselves, the principle that “this is our government, so unless in a particular instance there’s a damned good reason to the contrary, its workings should be open to all” IS quite important. **Loach** responded @10: > [@](#): > > That makes no sense. There is nothing secret about it. The “workings” are free and open to all. If a journalist wants to witness the way bodies are transported I’m sure there would be no problem. The “workings” of the government are open in this case, they just don’t want someone taking photos. Well, that’s exactly it: we have journalists because we can’t _all_ be there. If they can’t be our eyes and ears, then the function of the free press is being interfered with. There is not going to be an open invitation to the public to view the coffins being unloaded at Dover AFB (if that’s where it still is), for logistical reasons if no other. So the only way for i]me\* to see the coffins is for the press to be able to relay their images to me. Their role is to be my proxy. **Mr. Moto** @12: > [@](#): > > First of all, the photographs that were ultimately published were not smuggled out - they were released after a hearing on the applicability of the Freedom of Information Act to them. Quite a different matter. Whatever. It wasn’t like the government opened its files and said, “here, help yourself.” > [@](#): > > Secondly, the military here is very concerned with the rights of the dead soldier’s family members in determining how the image of their coffin will be used. Like **BobLibDem** , I call bullshit on this. First of all, there is NO image of the coffin itself, just the U.S. flag covering it. If the military took the coffins off the plane, then loaded an equal number of coffin-sized, flag-draped cardboard boxes, the photos would look exactly the same. There is no ‘injured party’ here. No family will even know that their loved one’s remains were even on that particular flight. The other thing is, _those soldiers represent all of us_. Their death is not a private death; they died because we, as a nation, put them in harm’s way. That a family could be bothered by _that_, I can completely understand. But we have a right to see the consequences of our actions, not just as a number on the page of a newspaper or a website, but in a way that conveys the reality of those consequences. The flag more than suffices to protect the privacy of the individual deceased soldier. But there’s no reason why we shouldn’t see the images of the flag-draped coffins, and some damned good reasons why we should. Further down the thread, there was some sniping about who was or wasn’t using the images of the coffins as political props. I don’t have a dog in that fight; it is of course quite possible that images will be misused. But this is still a free country, in theory, and freedom means freedom to do things that make people uncomfortable. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-coffins-in-the-cargo-plane/409038/6 "2007-06-22T19:36:22Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] Can there be a violation of privacy if the individual coffins cannot be identified? I say no, the fact that individuals cannot be associated with any one coffin precludes any possibility of the families’ rights being violated. [/QUOTE] Sort of a moot point, since I think your correct in that the occupants of the coffins aren’t likely to be identifiable in most pictures. But even if each coffin had a big sign saying “this coffin belongs to Joe Anysoldier” I don’t really see how that would violate anyones privacy. The names of soldiers killed in Iraq are in the public record, so its not like the families are going to be hiding the fact that their loved one is coming back in a box. I don’t see how a picture of someones coffin violates anyones privacy anymore then a picture, of say, a live soldiers tent or housing unit violates anyones privacy. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-coffins-in-the-cargo-plane/409038/7 "2007-06-22T19:38:32Z")
So unless a journalist provides you with a photograph of something, you can’t really experience it? That’s hogwash. Bernstein to my knowledge didn’t include a single photograph in exposing the Watergate scandal. There’s no public interest in allowing photos of stacked coffins being carried like cargo to be published, it’s disrespectful to the dead to allow such a photograph to become left-wing propaganda. The idea that we don’t know soldiers are dying because you can’t get photographs of their coffins during _one_ period of their transit is ludicrous. Plus, you’re off base that you need to be able to directly experience everything government does. You’re not going to ever see photographs of all kinds of stuff. Too bad. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-coffins-in-the-cargo-plane/409038/8 "2007-06-22T19:44:12Z")
To a great extent, the Privacy Act of 1974 applies here. And it applies not only to the dead soldiers in the coffins, but to the living ones transporting them. I was an assistant Command Public Relations Officer at one of my commands in the Navy, and while I am rusty on the details of the regulations, I do know that this was an important consideration. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-coffins-in-the-cargo-plane/409038/9 "2007-06-22T19:49:33Z")
[QUOTE=Malodorous] But even if each coffin had a big sign saying “this coffin belongs to Joe Anysoldier” I don’t really see how that would violate anyones privacy. The names of soldiers killed in Iraq are in the public record, so its not like the families are going to be hiding the fact that their loved one is coming back in a box. I don’t see how a picture of someones coffin violates anyones privacy anymore then a picture, of say, a live soldiers tent or housing unit violates anyones privacy. [/QUOTE] An important consideration is _when_ the fact the soldier is dead becomes part of the public record. You will often hear, even in the civilian world, that the identity of a dead person is being withheld pending notification of his family. And the military takes this notification process very seriously indeed. Let’s just say that nobody is notified by letter or telegram anymore - this is handled by officers trained in how to notify people in an appropriate and dignified manner, and help the families afterward, often for a couple of days. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-coffins-in-the-cargo-plane/409038/10 "2007-06-22T20:08:47Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] …it’s disrespectful to the dead to allow such a photograph to become left-wing propaganda… [/QUOTE] No doubt you meant to include _all_ such exploitation of Our Heroes, by \*any \* political stripe, but only referred to “left-wing propaganda” by oversight, which you are generously invited to correct. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-coffins-in-the-cargo-plane/409038/11 "2007-06-22T20:29:26Z")
No doubt that was the case, **elucidator**. But since the most egregious case of this was the use of these images in an ad for the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, you can see why such an oversight might fly from the old keyboard. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-coffins-in-the-cargo-plane/409038/12 "2007-06-22T20:39:17Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] An important consideration is _when_ the fact the soldier is dead becomes part of the public record. You will often hear, even in the civilian world, that the identity of a dead person is being withheld pending notification of his family. [/QUOTE] Yea, but I assume once your in a flag drapped coffin headed home, your family has been notified. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-coffins-in-the-cargo-plane/409038/13 "2007-06-22T21:05:40Z")
I think we tend to get too bogged down in personal opinions of the particulars, rather than the crux of the issue, which is censorship. I personally find pictures of flag-draped coffins incredibly sad, and do not wish to see them. I also abhor the thought of nakedly exploiting those images, or others of a similar nature, for political gain, even if it helps a particular cause/political party I favor. I also think supressing them is some of the most Un-American behavior I can think of. BFD. It’s not the point. The point is we don’t let the government tell us what we can say, in any format, for _almost_ any reason. This isn’t yelling “fire” in a crowded theater, this isn’t giving away any secrets, explicitly violent or pornographic. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-coffins-in-the-cargo-plane/409038/14 "2007-06-22T21:17:50Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] From the [Whence the patriotic firefighter fetish?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=425891) thread, since **tomndebb** requested us to take it to a new thread. So: should photos of the flag-draped coffins of those who have died overseas in the line of duty be allowed, or not? Feel free to link back to posts in the original thread. [/QUOTE] I think so, but I’d put a “hold” on those photos until all the coffins in the picture taken have been claimed by relatives and put into the ground (or cremated, etc., whatever,…). Maybe just simplify it with a “two-week hold,” figuring two weeks would be more than enough time for the family to make and carry out final arrangements. A remnant of my Christian decency and Army Values that I have as yet been unable to exorcise demands that much. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-coffins-in-the-cargo-plane/409038/15 "2007-06-22T21:31:30Z")
[QUOTE=ExTank] I think so, but I’d put a “hold” on those photos until all the coffins in the picture taken have been claimed by relatives and put into the ground (or cremated, etc., whatever,…). Maybe just simplify it with a “two-week hold,” figuring two weeks would be more than enough time for the family to make and carry out final arrangements. A remnant of my Christian decency and Army Values that I have as yet been unable to exorcise demands that much. [/QUOTE] Why? As mentioned earlier, its unlikely anyone will be able to tell what coffin belongs to which soldier from a picture, and even if they were, I can’t understand how it’s “unchristian” to publish a picture of a coffin that hasn’t been buried/cremated/whatever yet. I mean, most coffins are set out for a public viewing before burial anyways, thats half the point of going to the expense of shipping them back home. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-coffins-in-the-cargo-plane/409038/16 "2007-06-22T22:57:55Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Yes, to the extent that they do not violate the privacy of the family involved. [/QUOTE] I agree. But do we have a well fleshed out legal framework to determine when photographers are and are not violating the privacy of the family involved? I have no freakin’ idea. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-coffins-in-the-cargo-plane/409038/17 "2007-06-22T23:48:14Z")
[QUOTE=An Arky] The larger issue is the (initial) government censorship of these images, not what anybody thinks of the pictures themselves. [/QUOTE] I agree, but there is also another larger issue. One reason why so many people protested Vietnam was the number of dead. They died more because medical care was far from the arena of combat; they bled to death. In Iraq, we have fewer dead, but that’s because they have many hi-tech medical treatment facilities close to places where attacks occur. So, they live, but end up without a leg or two, or without an arm or two. Or without a leg and an arm. Or without three of their fingers on their right hand, which they write with. We should count up how many amputees come out of Iraq just as much as we count up the dead. Also those that come home crazy, and whose family lives are ruined. And PTSD is more related to the feelings about killing that soldiers have to do (not knowing if the person killed really should have been killed), and less about the risks to their own lives. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-coffins-in-the-cargo-plane/409038/18 "2007-06-22T23:55:42Z")
Well, that’s just human, isn’t it? Dead is fact, no gray areas, no shadows or nuances. “Wounded” covers a vast territory of misery, from the inconvenient to the horrific. It doesn’t lend itself to quantification, you can count corpses, how do you count pain? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-coffins-in-the-cargo-plane/409038/19 "2007-06-22T23:57:26Z")
Soldiers’ deaths _aren’t_ just family matters, like ordinary, civilian ones in the obits page. These coffins hold the bodies of people who put on the uniform, who took an oath to defend us with their lives, lives for which we are all responsible for using wisely in return. Yes, they all have families who grieve for them, but we have a special responsibility to grieve for them too, and a special responsibility for having at least in part \*caused \* that grief to occur. Hell, _yes_, we need those photos in our faces to remind us of the gravity of the situation we’ve created. The dead soldiers, and the crippled ones too, are, in a very special close way, \*our \* people. The claim that the families deserve privacy (and that we should not be confronted with the results of our actions) is not derived from any historical precedent, but if patently a political rationalization which can be ignored. We need to see dead Iraqis and their grieving families too, perhaps even more so. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2007, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-coffins-in-the-cargo-plane/409038/20 "2007-06-23T01:15:51Z")
You all have to be very aware of something here. You are all commenting on pictures of caskets as if they were an entity unto themselves. But they aren’t - they’re part of a story, part of a narrative. And there isn’t anything that says that the picture, when released, couldn’t have a story attached to it saying just who the soldiers in those coffins were. The military has been burned in the past with the press notifying family members about a soldier’s death before they do it in their own sensitive and well thought out manner. They want to ensure that this does not happen again in the future - indeed, their instructions on notification permit them to break other of their rules (about notification by person, at certain times, etc.) if there is the probability that the media will let the information be known to the family. [The Army instruction concerning casulty notification (long PDF) is here.](http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r600_8_1.pdf) It backs up everything I have said here. In addition, [I’m linking the Navy Public Affairs Officer Manual (PDF)](http://doni.daps.dla.mil/Directives/05000%20General%20Management%20Security%20and%20Safety%20Services/05-700%20General%20External%20and%20Internal%20Relations%20Services/5720.44B.pdf) that I remembered from so long ago. It does, of course, reference the Privacy Act, and contains this gem: > [@](#): > > Death generally extinguishes an individual’s privacy > rights. However, surviving family members may have a legitimate > privacy interest. Particularly sensitive personal details about > the circumstances surrounding an individual’s death may be > withheld when necessary to protect the privacy interests of > surviving family members. It is clear that at least for a time, the pictures can be suppressed. After a reasonable time, they cannot be. As for their use in ads and the like, that has to be governed by public taste. The revulsion that greeted their use in the DCCC ad, and that ad’s removal from the DCCC webpage, shows that the public really does not want these images used in such a manner. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-coffins-in-the-cargo-plane/409038.md?page=2)