# Photos of vestigial legs on whales? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 3, 2006, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-vestigial-legs-on-whales/342770 "2006-02-03T02:08:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-vestigial-legs-on-whales/342770/21 "2006-02-05T01:31:33Z")
I particularly like the Larson one, and I’d recently gone off Larson. You should note, of course, that there are a few creationists on this board, not all of whom are dingbats. Some of them have some interesting, if spurious, hypotheses. Make sure you read the forum rules before posting, in case of overheated debate… ---
**Author:** ![sharon\_457](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@sharon\_457](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sharon_457)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-vestigial-legs-on-whales/342770/22 "2006-02-05T02:24:55Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > I particularly like the Larson one, and I’d recently gone off Larson. > > You should note, of course, that there are a few creationists on this board, not all of whom are dingbats. Some of them have some interesting, if spurious, hypotheses. Make sure you read the forum rules before posting, in case of overheated debate… No offense to creationists. I hold spiritual beliefs myself. _My apologies!_ Just trying to be jovial. There really are so many views, including Christian Evolutionist, some are the brightest people, I agree. One of the better examples is Glenn Morton, Geologist, PhD. _and Christian_. He’s written many articles as a Scientist, as a Christian. [http://home.entouch.net/dmd/dmd.htm](http://home.entouch.net/dmd/dmd.htm) “I have spent a career in the oil industry finding hydrocarbons and have been involved in finding 700 million barrels over my career. That is a lot and those in the industry are impressed by that number. We shouldn’t be. It is less than a 2 week world supply. for the past 20 years, the oil industry has found less oil than we pumped out of the ground. That means that in the not too distant future, the world’s reserves will not be capable of supplying the requisite energy to the world. Some think we have already reached that point.” - Glenn Morton Makes you wonder if the fuel prices will go down any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![sharon\_457](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@sharon\_457](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sharon_457)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-vestigial-legs-on-whales/342770/23 "2006-02-05T03:33:41Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Superb cites! Best introduction ever, and considerably better than my own. Let’s not go there… > > **sharon\_457** , welcome aboard, and if you want to join the SDMB as a “charter member” I’d be happy to foot the bill. Email me if you’re interested. For the good work [straightdope.com](http://straightdope.com) does, I subscribed. 🆒 It’s still showing me as a guest though. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-vestigial-legs-on-whales/342770/24 "2006-02-05T03:38:43Z")
> [@sharon\_457](#): > > For the good work [straightdope.com](http://straightdope.com) does, I subscribed. 🆒 > > It’s still showing me as a guest though. Hey, that is cool. It shows member now. Glad you joined. I’ll second **jjimm** on **Best introduction ever**. Jim (another Jim, just to confuse you) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-vestigial-legs-on-whales/342770/25 "2006-02-05T05:37:19Z")
Very interesting, indeed. I didn’t know anything about this before checking out this thread. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-vestigial-legs-on-whales/342770/26 "2006-02-05T06:16:11Z")
> [@sharon\_457](#): > > [Unlike whales, which have virtually lost their limbs, the manatee is in the middle of transition between leg and flipper. OK, now that you’re a member, I’ll give you your first nit-pick initiation. 🙂 This isn’t a transition. The manatee’s limb isn’t evolving from a leg to a flipper-- it is what it is. Future populations of manatees might end up having more leglike flippers than current populations do. OK, back to the love fest. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![sharon\_457](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@sharon\_457](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sharon_457)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-vestigial-legs-on-whales/342770/27 "2006-02-05T16:19:14Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > OK, now that you’re a member, I’ll give you your first nit-pick initiation. 🙂 > > This isn’t a transition. The manatee’s limb isn’t evolving from a leg to a flipper-- it is what it is. Future populations of manatees might end up having more leglike flippers than current populations do. _manatees might end up having more leglike flippers_ Doubtful, if they remain in water. Leglike flippers would serve more of a disadvantage. Natural Selection leans toward whatever traits best suit a species to its environment. _manatee’s limb isn’t evolving from a leg to a flipper_ Though it has up to this point. _it is what it is._ For _today_, it is what it is, granted. Difficult to tell what direction mother nature will take with manatees over the next millions of years (genetic mutations being unpredictable), and with the manatee being endangered, one species hunted to extinction already, who knows? However, **comparing between Manatee** , one has totally lost its toenails and developed smooth flippers, **also comparing with the direction cetacea** have taken, their legs have almost totally disappeared. It’s natural, perhaps even a little naive to label them “transitional”, presuming they will follow the direction of a smooth flipper, the toe nails disappear, and are currently in the process of disappearing. But you are right. Who knows? Manatee could even return to land. If they do, our manatee with the toenails, would still be a transitional form between what it is now, and what it becomes. ---
**Author:** ![sharon\_457](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@sharon\_457](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sharon_457)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2006, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-vestigial-legs-on-whales/342770/28 "2006-02-05T18:36:59Z")
> [@Elendil's Heir](#): > > Very interesting, indeed. I didn’t know anything about this before checking out this thread. It is an intrigueing subject. A good start for anyone with interest in land mammal to sea mammal transition, I suggest _Evolution: Triumph of an Idea_, by Carl Zimmer / PBS. [http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/) [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005NGEB/](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005NGEB/) Carl Zimmer also now has an online blog: [http://loom.corante.com/](http://loom.corante.com/) “Whales have been trouble for scientists since Linnaeus put together the first modern taxonomy in 1735, ‘Amidst the greatest apparent confusion, the greatest order is visible,’ Linneaus wrote about classification, and yet when he tried to classify whales, he seemed only to add more confusion. Were they fish or mammals? ‘These are necessarily arranged with the Mammalia,’ he demanded, ‘though their habits and manners are like those of fish.’ Whales, he pointed out, have hearts like ventricles and auricles like mammals, they are warm-blooded, have lungs, nurse their young – just like mammals on land. They even have eyelids that move. . . Darwin viewed the similarities that Linnaeus had found as signs that whales (including porpoises and dolphins) descended from mammals that lived on land.” – Carl Zimmer, Evolution For a quick look at some known transitional land to sea mammal species: [http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/whales/introduction.html](http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/whales/introduction.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/photos-of-vestigial-legs-on-whales/342770.md?page=1)