# Phreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedddd! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 26, 2008, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedddd/435066 "2008-01-26T07:50:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedddd/435066/1 "2008-01-26T07:50:35Z")
[http://www.break.com/pictures/westboro-at-it-again439263.html](http://www.break.com/pictures/westboro-at-it-again439263.html) Protesting Heath Ledger’s funeral. Not because he was gay, cause, as far as I know, he wasn’t. Because he starred in “Brokeback Mountain” as a gay cowboy. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedddd/435066/2 "2008-01-26T07:55:07Z")
Nothing that asshole does shocks me. If anything, it’s a badge of honor to have his minions show up at your funeral. I think it’s far past time we stopped giving him attention and media coverage. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedddd/435066/3 "2008-01-26T08:03:44Z")
He was interviewed about Heath yesterday on an Australian (tabloid) Current Affairs [news show](http://video.msn.com/?mkt=en-au&brand=ninemsn&tab=m164). He’s a total madman. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedddd/435066/4 "2008-01-26T08:17:51Z")
Don’t blame Phreddy-boy. He’s tried, but he cain’t quit him. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedddd/435066/5 "2008-01-26T09:18:19Z")
To give the devil his due (perhaps using that phrase a bit more literally than in its usual application), by staring in ‘Brokeback Mountain’ with its sympathetic portrait of gay cowboys, Mr. Ledger could reasonably be argued to have acted as, in Mr. Phelps’ charming term, a ‘fag-enabler.’ This differs significantly from his usual charge of fag-enabling leveled against someone whose only act that Mr. Phelps sees as such is having the misfortune to die on duty as a soldier in Iraq. Phelps is sick, twisted and batshit insane, but the charge here is at least marginally less batshit insane than usual. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedddd/435066/6 "2008-01-26T09:34:01Z")
[QUOTE=Billdo] To give the devil his due (perhaps using that phrase a bit more literally than in its usual application), by staring in ‘Brokeback Mountain’ with its sympathetic portrait of gay cowboys, Mr. Ledger could reasonably be argued to have acted as, in Mr. Phelps’ charming term, a ‘fag-enabler.’ This differs significantly from his usual charge of fag-enabling leveled against someone whose only act that Mr. Phelps sees as such is having the misfortune to die on duty as a soldier in Iraq. Phelps is sick, twisted and batshit insane, but the charge here is at least marginally less batshit insane than usual. [/QUOTE] …which, if you think about it, says a lot about what we’ve come to expect from our nutcases. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedddd/435066/7 "2008-01-26T10:05:06Z")
Fred, I swear… ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedddd/435066/8 "2008-01-26T10:54:02Z")
Well, the mind rottting gossip blog Perez Hilton has been covering this, including the [interview Shirley Phelps Roper](http://perezhilton.com/2008-01-25-she-had-it-coming) gave. Seems she didn’t like it when people pointed out she had children outside of wedlock. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedddd/435066/9 "2008-01-26T11:27:25Z")
[QUOTE=GuanoLad] He was interviewed about Heath yesterday on an Australian (tabloid) Current Affairs [news show](http://video.msn.com/?mkt=en-au&brand=ninemsn&tab=m164). He’s a total madman. [/QUOTE] He certainly doesn’t seem to be the full quid. I only saw the bit where she said to him “Mr Phelps I hope one day you do get to meet your creator and you can explain yourself to him.” I chuckled at that but he started talking again so I changed channels. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedddd/435066/10 "2008-01-26T13:18:48Z")
[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow] Nothing that asshole does shocks me. If anything, it’s a badge of honor to have his minions show up at your funeral. [/QUOTE] Hell, I’d _invite_ him to picket MY funeral. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedddd/435066/11 "2008-01-26T13:19:42Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Hell, I’d _invite_ him to picket MY funeral. [/QUOTE] I wouldn’t, because I don’t want to put my family through that kind of hateful insanity. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedddd/435066/12 "2008-01-26T14:38:59Z")
I wonder…could we sicc Phredd on Paris Hilton? I mean, if we _really_ tried… ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedddd/435066/13 "2008-01-26T15:34:37Z")
I don’t get Fred & his crew. One the one hand they protest “fags” and “fag enablers” as if they’re trying to change behavior. They’re not. Because on the other hand they preach a strong Calvinist message that we’re all predestined to be as we are. There’s nothing we can do to achieve salvation if we haven’t already been “elected” before birth, according to their doctrine. So why do they waste their time? Of course the answer is they’re just a personality cult of attention-seeking trolls. They’re ridiculous enough on the surface. But they’re even more farcical given they’re own stated beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedddd/435066/14 "2008-01-26T15:52:45Z")
:smack: their ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedddd/435066/15 "2008-01-26T16:36:57Z")
[QUOTE=the PC apeman] I don’t get Fred & his crew. One the one hand they protest “fags” and “fag enablers” as if they’re trying to change behavior. They’re not. Because on the other hand they preach a strong Calvinist message that we’re all predestined to be as we are. There’s nothing we can do to achieve salvation if we haven’t already been “elected” before birth, according to their doctrine. So why do they waste their time? Of course the answer is they’re just a personality cult of attention-seeking trolls. They’re ridiculous enough on the surface. But they’re even more farcical given they’re own stated beliefs. [/QUOTE] Well, i’m not interested in trying to account for the logic or consistency of the Westboro Baptist Church’s belief system, but it is worth noting that, historically, there are a number of important Calvinist belief systems that saw nothing inconsistent in preaching both Predestination and also the absolute need to obey God’s moral law. Perhaps the most obvious, in an American historical context, are the Puritans who settled Massachusetts Bay. Like other Calvinist groups, the Puritans were very careful to argue that predestination did not free people from God’s strictures regarding behavior. In his famous “Treatise on the Covent of Grace,” Puritan theologian John Cotton went to considerable lengths to convince his listeners that the Covenant was not a license to disobey the moral law: > [@](#): > > If any therefore shall accuse the Doctrine of the Covenant of free Grace of _Antinomianism_, and say, it teacheth men freedome from the _Law of Moses_; any if they commit sin, they plead they are not bound unto the _Law_; we see how false such an aspersion would be: for all the people of God know, that the Lord is an avenger of every such wickedness. There is none under a Covenant of Grace that dare allow himself in any sin; for if a man should negligently commit any sin, the Lord will school him thoroughly, and make him sadly to apprehend how he hath made bold with the treasures of the grace of God…So that the children of the Covenant of grace will only tell you, that they are free from the Covenant of the _Law_, but not from the _Commandment_ of it. So, while obedience to the Mosaic Law (the ten commandments and other Laws of Moses) will not determine whether or not you are saved, obedience is nonetheless required by God, under His commandment. But—and this is where your critique of Phelps is right on the money—only God really knows who is saved and who is damned. Calvinists like Phelps and co. should know that, just because _they_ think that someone is going to hell for being a “fag-enabler,” doesn’t mean that God has predestined that person for hell. Because for Calvinists, while good behavior will not help a doomed person get into heaven, neither will bad behavior send a saved person to hell. While Cotton argues that all are under an obligation to obey God’s laws, he also says that: > [@](#): > > if a man know himself to be under the Covenant of Grace, then he doth not fear condemnation from his disobedience. Those Puritans certainly walked a fine line attempting to maintain their Calvinism; i think the uncertainty and anxiety would eventually drive me to drink. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedddd/435066/16 "2008-01-26T17:07:36Z")
Rather than start yet another thread about Heath Ledger, I’d throw in a mild pit of the media for harassing a young actress who’s just lost a friend or boyfriend. God, I’ve never though the Olsen twins were anything but annoying, but I’ve come to feel kind of sorry for her. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedddd/435066/17 "2008-01-26T17:36:11Z")
When was the last time they picketed someone who was actually gay? I’m starting to feel left out. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedddd/435066/18 "2008-01-26T18:14:00Z")
I guess too many of y’all are bears, or consort with bears. They don’t wanna get their asses kicked. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedddd/435066/19 "2008-01-26T20:53:56Z")
[QUOTE=Billdo] To give the devil his due (perhaps using that phrase a bit more literally than in its usual application), by staring in ‘Brokeback Mountain’ with its sympathetic portrait of gay cowboys, Mr. Ledger could reasonably be argued to have acted as, in Mr. Phelps’ charming term, a ‘fag-enabler.’ This differs significantly from his usual charge of fag-enabling leveled against someone whose only act that Mr. Phelps sees as such is having the misfortune to die on duty as a soldier in Iraq. Phelps is sick, twisted and batshit insane, but the charge here is at least marginally less batshit insane than usual. [/QUOTE] You know, the WBC might be doing Heath a favor here. No one else will possibly join his picket, and so some of the marginally-less-wacky homophobic types might refrain from speaking against Heath Ledger. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedddd/435066/20 "2008-01-26T21:08:29Z")
A think Fred needs to take a vacation and go hunting and fishing with a buddy. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/phreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedddd/435066.md?page=2)