# Physical descriptions in a post racial world **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 1, 2012, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/physical-descriptions-in-a-post-racial-world/623757 "2012-06-01T12:36:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/physical-descriptions-in-a-post-racial-world/623757/1 "2012-06-01T12:36:08Z")
(Placed in GD due to the subject matter; mods kindly move if appropriate) So there has been a good amount of discussion and evidence presented that the term “race” has no biological validity in regards to humans. Our species, being so clinal and widespread cannot be accurately separated into such nice categories and thus race is an archaic and loaded term that should be done away with. Given that this is scientifically accurate, how should we then present physical descriptions of people? While [This](http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=08R&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1546&bih=859&tbm=isch&tbnid=bxJkjxuUixGaGM:&imgrefurl=http://www.gentry-style.com/style/ski-style/&docid=FUI1b98_lXtraM&imgurl=http://www.gentry-style.com/wp-content/uploads/Traditional%252520Icelandic%252520Fisherman%2525202.jpg&w=350&h=525&ei=T7XIT735EI3C0AGVlKF-&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=905&vpy=34&dur=1297&hovh=275&hovw=183&tx=112&ty=190&sig=115664513815836219463&page=1&tbnh=147&tbnw=98&start=0&ndsp=29&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:0,i:107) man and [This](http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=nAS&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1546&bih=859&tbm=isch&tbnid=NRVUKwueBzNskM:&imgrefurl=http://ncadc.org.uk/blog/2012/01/uche-nnabuife-the-story-of-a-gay-nigerian-man-seeking-sanctuary-in-the-uk/&docid=d9xRx3Ccn-vIbM&imgurl=http://ncadc.org.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Uche-20121.jpg&w=2736&h=3648&ei=vrXIT8HxE8T10gH48YSUAQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=1313&vpy=397&dur=1061&hovh=259&hovw=194&tx=154&ty=130&sig=115664513815836219463&page=2&tbnh=167&tbnw=116&start=31&ndsp=36&ved=1t:429,r:28,s:31,i:199) man are undoubtedly the same species, they present very differently. Surely we should have some sort of shortcuts we can use to describe them physically **when necessary** that are not loaded. So if we assume that the old racial terms are socially as well as biologically invalid and carry too much baggage, where then do we go? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/physical-descriptions-in-a-post-racial-world/623757/2 "2012-06-01T12:53:28Z")
Doing away with the concept of race means not believing in stereotypes, it does not mean you must be literally colour-blind. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/physical-descriptions-in-a-post-racial-world/623757/3 "2012-06-01T13:04:20Z")
We can start using simple numberical metrics to describe skin tone, hair color and texture, and body build, in the same way that we use height and weight now. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/physical-descriptions-in-a-post-racial-world/623757/4 "2012-06-01T13:05:31Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > So if we assume that the old racial terms are socially as well as biologically invalid and carry too much baggage, where then do we go? We _can’t_ assume that. The question amounts to “if we don’t permit ourselves to describe individuals by their individual characteristics, how can we distinguish them?” We can’t. I love watching overly-PC people struggling to point out a person at the opposite corner of a crowded room, when that person is a member of some ethnic minority. “You should talk to Joe - he’s over there - the… guy with the blue shirt [realises that half the people in the room have blue shirts].. standing next to the… chair …”, when “You should talk to Joe - he’s the Indian guy over there” works just fine. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/physical-descriptions-in-a-post-racial-world/623757/5 "2012-06-01T13:17:13Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > “You should talk to Joe - he’s the Indian guy over there” works just fine. What if Joe’s actually Pakistani and he overhears and this offends him 🙂 But yes, agreed, there’s nothing wrong with using ethnic/population group descriptors for people. It’s a useful shortcut, and it’s only when this phenotype description is assumed to be more meaningful for anything else, that problems occur. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/physical-descriptions-in-a-post-racial-world/623757/6 "2012-06-01T13:26:21Z")
I don’t think using things like skin color or eye shape in physical descriptions is any problem whatsoever, it’s when you use race as a primary attribute for describing a whole person. If you’re trying to describe someone so they can be picked out of a crowded room, race is perfectly okay to mention, but things become a little more dodgey if you’re trying to explain someone’s career, interests, ambitions, hobbies, etc. and you throw race in there as a primary defining attribute when you wouldn’t for a white person (or whatever the default race is in your neck of the woods). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/physical-descriptions-in-a-post-racial-world/623757/7 "2012-06-01T13:40:47Z")
The notion that “race” is a social construct based on superficial characteristics does not eliminate the usefullness of those superficial characteristics for description. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/physical-descriptions-in-a-post-racial-world/623757/8 "2012-06-01T13:41:07Z")
Many years ago my 7th grade English teacher went on about how proud she was when her daughter tried to describe a friend to her and didn’t mention skin color. I say tried because it apparently took the daughter quite some time to make it clear to her mother which friend she was talking about. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with using skin color as a physical descriptor. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/physical-descriptions-in-a-post-racial-world/623757/9 "2012-06-01T14:23:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But yes, agreed, there’s nothing wrong with using ethnic/population group descriptors for people. It’s a useful shortcut, and it’s only when this phenotype description is assumed to be more meaningful for anything else, that problems occur. snip. I agree as well; but apparently defining when the shortcut is appropriate is a highly subjective process as we’ve seen on here any number of times. What some people would find to be meaningless is pretty serious to others. I’ll note that we’ve yet to have some of the touchier Dopers weigh in yet so perhaps we’ll go forward a bit with that later. **DrFidelius** suggests an objective metric for skin tone or ethnicity. Might that be an easy solution? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/physical-descriptions-in-a-post-racial-world/623757/10 "2012-06-01T15:05:57Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > snip. > > I agree as well; but apparently defining when the shortcut is appropriate is a highly subjective process as we’ve seen on here any number of times. I think when you start getting into the frequently-stereotyped/caricatured specifics, you’ve gone too far - “Nappy-haired Hos” wasn’t _just_ offensive for the “Hos” part. > [@](#): > > What some people would find to be meaningless is pretty serious to others. Hence my joke about the Pakistani… > [@](#): > > I’ll note that we’ve yet to have some of the touchier Dopers weigh in yet so perhaps we’ll go forward a bit with that later. _I’m_ pretty touchy (about racists), and I have no problem being described as Brown, or Coloured. If I were in America, I’d even get used to being described as Black (although I tend to get pedantic about it on here, as there’s a distinct (cultural) difference in SA and I like educating people) > [@](#): > > **DrFidelius** suggests an objective metric for skin tone or ethnicity. Might that be an easy solution? It’s hard to see it being adopted casually, though - people are better with subjective than objective measures, I think. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/physical-descriptions-in-a-post-racial-world/623757/11 "2012-06-01T15:22:02Z")
Now, I said nothing about ethnicity, just skin tones and textures. As for it not being used because we are better with subjective descriptions, perhaps we can add it in as a app to our SmartGoggles, so that as they record our every visual experience the different people we see can be categorized effectively. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/physical-descriptions-in-a-post-racial-world/623757/12 "2012-06-01T15:30:30Z")
“Yes, officer, he was a #CD7F32 male, #954535 eyes, and #000000 hair !” ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/physical-descriptions-in-a-post-racial-world/623757/13 "2012-06-01T15:53:47Z")
In a post racial world I would describe the first person as blond, light skinned with a slight mustache, while I would describe the other person as dark skinned, heavy set and bald. I could probably also say that the first person may have had Northern European ancestry, and the second person likely had some African ancestry. No racism required. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/physical-descriptions-in-a-post-racial-world/623757/14 "2012-06-01T16:24:40Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > We can start using simple numberical metrics to describe skin tone, hair color and texture, and body build, in the same way that we use height and weight now. This is feasible. Describe a “black” person the same general way you’d describe a “white” person. It’s okay to note relative skin color – I’ve described “white” people as “the one with the ruddy face,” for example – what’s objectively wrong is to assume that has anything to do with “race” (or even ethnicity, really.) > [@Mangetout](#): > > The question amounts to “if we don’t permit ourselves to describe individuals by their individual characteristics, how can we distinguish them?” We can’t. Well, as suggested above, it’s perfectly okay to note individual characteristics. What’s wrong is to assign those to some artificially created group. For example, the Khoi-San peoples live in Africa, and look pretty different, physically, from the Bantu peoples. But the Khoi-San were driven onto marginal land by the Bantu expansion, and it’s scientifically and historically inaccurate to lump them in with the Bantu as one “race.” > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > In a post racial world I would describe the first person as blond, light skinned with a slight mustache, while I would describe the other person as dark skinned, heavy set and bald. Like so. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/physical-descriptions-in-a-post-racial-world/623757/15 "2012-06-01T16:30:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What if Joe’s actually Pakistani and he overhears and this offends him 🙂 Go with South Asian if you’re in the US, or Asian in Europe. I assume Asian would also work in SA. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/physical-descriptions-in-a-post-racial-world/623757/16 "2012-06-02T05:00:00Z")
Well instead of using simplistic terms of “races”, we can idenfity the various human physical types (which for various reasons have fallen into disrepute), I for example am a Nordsinid. Example: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine\_race](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_race) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/physical-descriptions-in-a-post-racial-world/623757/17 "2012-06-02T05:09:53Z")
I will be forever (and quite logically) identified as “that handsome devil over there.” ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/physical-descriptions-in-a-post-racial-world/623757/18 "2012-06-02T06:03:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _I’m_ pretty touchy (about racists), and I have no problem being described as Brown, or Coloured. If I were in America, I’d even get used to being described as Black (although I tend to get pedantic about it on here, as there’s a distinct (cultural) difference in SA and I like educating people) I’d like to hear the SA terminology. In my neck of the woods, “brown” denotes south Asian or Middle Eastern ancestry, “black” denotes African ancestry, and “coloured” is an outdated version of “black”. What terminology do you use? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/physical-descriptions-in-a-post-racial-world/623757/19 "2012-06-02T06:06:33Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > I’d like to hear the SA terminology. In my neck of the woods, “brown” denotes south Asian or Middle Eastern ancestry, “black” denotes African ancestry, and “coloured” is an outdated version of “black”. What terminology do you use? Not South African but basically: White-White Black-Fully black Coloured-Mixed race Asian-Indians I presume brown is similar to coloured in this context. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2012, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/physical-descriptions-in-a-post-racial-world/623757/20 "2012-06-02T06:11:15Z")
I just had this conversation with my son. I had to cover for someone early in the morning, so I took my son with me to make sure the building was open for everyone. It was 7 am. As kids trickled in, I asked him, “Anyone else?” and he said, “I just let in two Chinese girls.” First - they were Mexican. Second - don’t identify (loudly, of course) kids by their skin color. When I tried to explain this to him, he looked really confused. “What’s wrong with calling someone brown?” I’ve noticed as a white person that it can make me uncomfortable when someone uses race as an identifying marker (I guess because there are so many ways to do this, e.g., _That black chick with the EBT card_ versus _That black man standing in line in Aisle 4_). I guess it’s because identifying people by their race/skin color/ethnicity is usually done in a negative context. But I get really irritated when my students do this when referring to a white person. “Oh yeah that white kid?” or “That white teacher?” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/physical-descriptions-in-a-post-racial-world/623757.md?page=2)