# Picture of God, or a picture of a strawman? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2008, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/picture-of-god-or-a-picture-of-a-strawman/442307 "2008-03-22T03:03:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/picture-of-god-or-a-picture-of-a-strawman/442307/21 "2008-03-22T05:24:26Z")
[QUOTE=Pochacco] We can also observe **Czarcasm** ’s wife. [/QUOTE] Not since the restraining order I can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/picture-of-god-or-a-picture-of-a-strawman/442307/22 "2008-03-22T05:25:44Z")
[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist] Not since the restraining order I can’t. [/QUOTE] _You_ can observe it from 100 feet away, per court order. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/picture-of-god-or-a-picture-of-a-strawman/442307/23 "2008-03-22T05:32:30Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] What I have asked is, what proof do you have that love exists? [/QUOTE] None. But then … I can’t PROVE the Sun exists either. Every day I’m confronted with a great deal of EVIDENCE that the Sun exists, but I’m willing to concede that there is a very slight chance the Sun is just an elaborate ruse constructed for my benefit. Do you believe in the Sun? Can you PROVE it? ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/picture-of-god-or-a-picture-of-a-strawman/442307/24 "2008-03-22T05:34:40Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] So you cannot provide solid _evidence_ of your God’s love for you, but you ask for _proof_ that our love exists. Does anyone else see the disparity here? [/QUOTE] If I pretended to be an atheist for a day, could you then discuss the issue? Will no one accept that I am not engaged in some sort of stealth witnessing? I want to know if you apply the same criteria of logical evidence to your love that you demand of me. I have never once claimed to believe in God for logical or rational cause. Never on any post (safe claim now, eh? 😉 ) in Great Debates. I have in fact warned Christians on the board against that very idea. I believe it to be spiritually unsound. But that isn’t what I wanted to talk about. No, really. It isn’t. Do you believe in love? If you do, do you believe in it because you find it rational, and you find the evidence of it convincing? Is it a rational, logical decision to love? Tris ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/picture-of-god-or-a-picture-of-a-strawman/442307/25 "2008-03-22T05:42:13Z")
[QUOTE=Pochacco] What is your philosophical justification for believing that you are a living breathing human being and not just a brain in a jar? [/QUOTE] Well, I am not entirely convinced, but it seems I am a semi-stable standing wave pattern. Or, alternately, if I am a mind only, the jar and brain seem . . . redundant. Tris ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/picture-of-god-or-a-picture-of-a-strawman/442307/26 "2008-03-22T05:43:48Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] Is it a rational, logical decision to love? [/QUOTE] BELIEF in the existence of love is not the same thing as experiencing love itself. I can rationally believe that love exists and, at the same time, irrationally experience love for a particular individual. Or you can have one without the other. I can believe in love without experiencing it. Or a person could experience the emotion without labelling or understanding it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/picture-of-god-or-a-picture-of-a-strawman/442307/27 "2008-03-22T05:46:40Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] If I pretended to be an atheist for a day, could you then discuss the issue? Will no one accept that I am not engaged in some sort of stealth witnessing? I want to know if you apply the same criteria of logical evidence to your love that you demand of me. I have never once claimed to believe in God for logical or rational cause. Never on any post (safe claim now, eh? 😉 ) in Great Debates. I have in fact warned Christians on the board against that very idea. I believe it to be spiritually unsound. But that isn’t what I wanted to talk about. No, really. It isn’t. Do you believe in love? If you do, do you believe in it because you find it rational, and you find the evidence of it convincing? Is it a rational, logical decision to love? Tris [/QUOTE] I am not doubting your faith. I am doubting that you have something to have faith _in_. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/picture-of-god-or-a-picture-of-a-strawman/442307/28 "2008-03-22T05:51:35Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] The his professions of faith are no more valid than my professions of love? [/QUOTE] Oh, by the way, I have not said that my professions of faith, which by the way have not happened in this tread, are more valid than your profession of love. The point of discussion was to be where your profession of love was based. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/picture-of-god-or-a-picture-of-a-strawman/442307/29 "2008-03-22T05:55:13Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] Oh, by the way, I have not said that my professions of faith, which by the way have not happened in this tread, are more valid than your profession of love. The point of discussion was to be where your profession of love was based. Tris [/QUOTE] Based on words and actions exchanged between my Beloved and myself, some of which having been witnessed by independent observers. Does that count as evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/picture-of-god-or-a-picture-of-a-strawman/442307/30 "2008-03-22T05:55:17Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] I am not doubting your faith. I am doubting that you have something to have faith _in_. [/QUOTE] But what you are not doing is responding to my posts at all. I don’t mind if you doubt my faith. You can believe me to be a charlatan, if you wish. I am not asking you to believe in anything. I am asking whether you believe in love. And so far, the evidence is that you don’t believe in anything but the mutual declaration of love as the entire existence of it as a phenomenon. Is there more? Tris ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/picture-of-god-or-a-picture-of-a-strawman/442307/31 "2008-03-22T06:01:15Z")
Define the love you would wish me to provide evidence for. I would put the needs, and indeed the life, of my Beloved over my own needs and life. I value her opinions, and would rather die than bring her pain. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/picture-of-god-or-a-picture-of-a-strawman/442307/32 "2008-03-22T06:03:11Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] Based on words and actions exchanged between my Beloved and myself, some of which having been witnessed by independent observers. Does that count as evidence? [/QUOTE] Is that what convinced you? Is that why you love your wife? Is it entirely based on her behavior, and her words? Was there a . . . internal debate, comparison, or evaluation that met criteria you have established for what is love, and what is not? Did you consciously decide to love your wife? I need to stop. Reading this has made me feel that I am prosecuting you for not feeling something, and I actually don’t think that is true. I believe you love your wife. Why is none of my business. I cannot think how this discussion can continue, without that level of antagonism, and I do not wish to foster that. I am sorry. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Mojo\_Pin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mojo\_Pin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo_Pin)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/picture-of-god-or-a-picture-of-a-strawman/442307/33 "2008-03-22T06:04:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Do you believe in love? If you do, do you believe in it because you find it rational, and you find the evidence of it convincing? Is it a rational, logical decision to love? I believe in love because I find there is a rational, logical and convincing explanation for its existence (that it is a chemical reward system for maintaining strong social ties) supported by firsthand experience and secondhand evidence. It doesn’t have to be a “rational, logical **decision** to love” for there to be a rational, logical \*\*explanation \*\*for it. [/QUOTE] Will that love cease to exist if one of you dies? [QUOTE] People keep loving the memories and thoughts of dead loved ones. The love that manifests itself through interaction–that’s gone by definition (but unless you’re hiding something from us, you’ve never had that with your god to start with). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/picture-of-god-or-a-picture-of-a-strawman/442307/34 "2008-03-22T06:06:39Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] I don’t mind if you doubt my faith. [/QUOTE] :sigh: I’m sorry, but I _do_ get tired of repeating this-I do not doubt your faith. I doubt that you have something real to have faith _in_. Your faith-\>real Your god-\>I’ve got my doubts ---
**Author:** ![Mojo\_Pin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mojo\_Pin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo_Pin)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/picture-of-god-or-a-picture-of-a-strawman/442307/35 "2008-03-22T06:10:47Z")
> [@](#): > > I cannot think how this discussion can continue, without that level of antagonism, and I do not wish to foster that. I am sorry. It doesn’t have to be strictly about the love Czarcasm has for his wife. For the benefit of the masses we can continue talking about the love I’ve got for my girlfriend, whom I wish I were old enough to marry, the love I have for my dog, who died 3 months ago, or the love I have for my best friend, who currently lives on the other side of the earth from me. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/picture-of-god-or-a-picture-of-a-strawman/442307/36 "2008-03-22T06:11:39Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] :sigh: I’m sorry, but I _do_ get tired of repeating this-I do not doubt your faith. I doubt that you have something real to have faith _in_. Your faith-\>real Your god-\>I’ve got my doubts [/QUOTE] Well, I have faith in God, even if He isn’t real. But, that’s a whole different thread! And, also, you have in the past made it clear that you don’t doubt my faith, I was in the grip of a rhetoric frenzy, since it seems that I cannot get into a thread without having it perceived that I am proselytizing. While I won’t claim that I don’t try to bring the message of faith where it is appropriate, I really don’t want to convince anyone to believe in God. I am sure the subject will come up again. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/picture-of-god-or-a-picture-of-a-strawman/442307/37 "2008-03-22T06:15:59Z")
[QUOTE=Pochacco] What is your philosophical justification for believing that you are a living breathing human being and not just a brain in a jar? [/QUOTE] Dude, I am a brain in a jar… a jar made of bone… /pothead\_philosopher There is evidence for love in my relationship with my wife. I do things that are against my best interests and desires to make her happy. She certainly does the same for me. Every day I gather more and more evidence that she and I feel a reciprocated love for one another. Someday I may find out she’s a robot from the future that’s using me to insure that a supercomputer will be invented that will destroy humanity. But it isn’t the most elegant answer to fit the available facts. So I believe that we feel love based on the evidence I’ve been able to amass. Say for instance that my wife were invisible, intangible and inaudible and I could only talk to her telepathically and she never, ever in my whole life talked back or even did one single solitary fucking thing to suggest that she even existed. Never showed herself, wrote me a letter or even appeared to me for an instant. I just \*know \*that she’s there and she feels romantic love for me. Wouldn’t you think I was a fucking loon for suggesting that she loves me. So I personally think someone who says god loves them is a fucking loon. Isn’t that fair? You can’t suggest that god’s love for you is the same as the love of two people. Because you can observe the two people. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/picture-of-god-or-a-picture-of-a-strawman/442307/38 "2008-03-22T06:17:19Z")
[QUOTE=Mojo Pin] It doesn’t have to be strictly about the love Czarcasm has for his wife. For the benefit of the masses we can continue talking about the love I’ve got for my girlfriend, whom I wish I were old enough to marry, the love I have for my dog, who died 3 months ago, or the love I have for my best friend, who currently lives on the other side of the earth from me. [/QUOTE] Thanks. But, confession time! **Czarcasm** and I have a long history of speaking at cross purposes, with . . . inconsistent mutual enlightenment. This particular point looked to me like a way to move into a different realm to examine rationality vs . . . My peculiar way of thinking. I neglected to take into account the fact that in this case countering his philosophic argument would necessarily involve attacking his person. It was wrong. I at least on some level wanted to denigrate his, well, his spirit. It was a really bad thing to do. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/picture-of-god-or-a-picture-of-a-strawman/442307/39 "2008-03-22T06:21:48Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] Thanks. But, confession time! **Czarcasm** and I have a long history of speaking at cross purposes, with . . . inconsistent mutual enlightenment. This particular point looked to me like a way to move into a different realm to examine rationality vs . . . My peculiar way of thinking. I neglected to take into account the fact that in this case countering his philosophic argument would necessarily involve attacking his person. It was wrong. I at least on some level wanted to denigrate his, well, his spirit. It was a really bad thing to do. Tris [/QUOTE] Insult _not_ felt or taken. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/picture-of-god-or-a-picture-of-a-strawman/442307/40 "2008-03-22T06:23:27Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] Insult _not_ felt or taken. [/QUOTE] Thanks. You know, I knew that. Ok, Love fest is over, you Godless . . . atheist, you! Tris [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/picture-of-god-or-a-picture-of-a-strawman/442307.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/picture-of-god-or-a-picture-of-a-strawman/442307.md?page=3)