# Pied Piper - How did it get its current meaning? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 6, 2008, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pied-piper-how-did-it-get-its-current-meaning/444196 "2008-04-06T18:07:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pied-piper-how-did-it-get-its-current-meaning/444196/1 "2008-04-06T18:07:09Z")
If you look up “pied piper” you will find that it means: > [@American Heritage Dictionary](#): > > 1. A person who offers others strong yet delusive enticements. > > 2. One, such as a leader, who makes irresponsible promises. The term comes from the story of the Pied Piper of Hamelin; however, in the story the Pied Piper’s promises were not delusive or irresponsible. He did get rid of all the rats. How did the term come to mean what it does today? ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pied-piper-how-did-it-get-its-current-meaning/444196/2 "2008-04-06T18:11:12Z")
I suppose it comes from the enticement of his flute playing. But he is not really enticing the rats or children with his flute playing. It just has magic powers. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pied-piper-how-did-it-get-its-current-meaning/444196/3 "2008-04-06T18:15:21Z")
It’s just a story. In real life, I think you’d have to be pretty deluded and irresponsible to give your children to a pedophile who claims he can rid your locality of rats by playing a magic flute. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pied-piper-how-did-it-get-its-current-meaning/444196/4 "2008-04-06T18:18:30Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] It’s just a story. In real life, I think you’d have to be pretty deluded and irresponsible to give your children to a pedophile who claims he can rid your locality of rats by playing a magic flute. [/QUOTE] He did not want the children in the story. He wanted gold. He took the children because he was not paid. It was revenge. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pied-piper-how-did-it-get-its-current-meaning/444196/5 "2008-04-06T18:20:14Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] It’s just a story. In real life, I think you’d have to be pretty deluded and irresponsible to give your children to a pedophile who claims he can rid your locality of rats by playing a magic flute. [/QUOTE] They didn’t give the children to him. He lured them with his flute. [Insert ‘flute’ joke.] And he did indeed get rid of the rats. Only the townspeople renegged on their promise to pay him. That’s why he lured the children away. I think the answer to the OP is that the Piper, or his music, ‘promised’ something attractive to rats and children; so they followed him. The ‘promise’ was not to the townspeople. So a ‘pied piper’ gets people to follow him to their destruction, which I think fits the definition. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pied-piper-how-did-it-get-its-current-meaning/444196/6 "2008-04-06T18:20:32Z")
Right. It was a joke, y’see… ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pied-piper-how-did-it-get-its-current-meaning/444196/7 "2008-04-06T18:21:51Z")
I’ve always understood the expression to refer to the piper’s powers of leading children (and rats) astray. A pied piper is a person people follow to their doom. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pied-piper-how-did-it-get-its-current-meaning/444196/8 "2008-04-06T18:25:49Z")
[QUOTE=Johnny L.A.] They didn’t give the children to him. He lured them with his flute. [Insert ‘flute’ joke.] And he did indeed get rid of the rats. Only the townspeople renegged on their promise to pay him. That’s why he lured the children away. I think the answer to the OP is that the Piper, or his music, ‘promised’ something attractive to rats and children; so they followed him. The ‘promise’ was not to the townspeople. So a ‘pied piper’ gets people to follow him to their destruction, which I think fits the definition. [/QUOTE] That is my best guess, too. But “entice” does not seem to be the right word for what the flute did to the rats and children. Enticement involves attracting through hope or desire. There is nothing in the story, as far as I am aware, that suggests the flute playing aroused hope or desire. It seemed to just put the rats and children under a spell. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pied-piper-how-did-it-get-its-current-meaning/444196/9 "2008-04-06T18:51:19Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] That is my best guess, too. But “entice” does not seem to be the right word for what the flute did to the rats and children. Enticement involves attracting through hope or desire. There is nothing in the story, as far as I am aware, that suggests the flute playing aroused hope or desire. It seemed to just put the rats and children under a spell. [/QUOTE] The word I would use for what the Pied Piper did to the rats and children would be “charmed.” ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pied-piper-how-did-it-get-its-current-meaning/444196/10 "2008-04-06T18:58:05Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] That is my best guess, too. But “entice” does not seem to be the right word for what the flute did to the rats and children. Enticement involves attracting through hope or desire. There is nothing in the story, as far as I am aware, that suggests the flute playing aroused hope or desire. It seemed to just put the rats and children under a spell. [/QUOTE] True, but these metaphorical expressions always break down if you demand too much of them. It’s not uncommon to compare false promises and deluded hopes to some sort of magic spell or hypnotism. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2008, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pied-piper-how-did-it-get-its-current-meaning/444196/11 "2008-04-06T21:02:17Z")
link to article. > **[Pied Piper of Hamelin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pied_Piper_of_Hamelin)** > > The Pied Piper of Hamelin (German: der Rattenfänger von Hameln, also known as the Pan Piper or the Rat-Catcher of Hamelin) is the title character of a legend from the town of Hamelin (Hameln), Lower Saxony, Germany. > The legend dates back to the Middle Ages. The earliest references describe a piper, dressed in multicolored ("pied") clothing, who was a rat catcher hired by the town to lure rats away with his magic pipe. When the citizens refuse to pay for this service as promised, he retaliates ... ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2008, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pied-piper-how-did-it-get-its-current-meaning/444196/12 "2008-04-07T02:11:00Z")
Ahem. [QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] I suppose it comes from the enticement of his flute playing. But he is not really enticing the rats or children with his flute playing. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Q.E.D.] In real life, I think you’d have to be pretty deluded and irresponsible to give your children to a pedophile who claims he can rid your locality of rats by playing a magic flute. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Johnny L.A.] He lured them with his flute. [/QUOTE] Based on the nickname of the protaganist, I think it’s reasonable to presume that the musician in this fable was playing a [pipe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipe_%28instrument%29), not a [flute](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flute). ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2008, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pied-piper-how-did-it-get-its-current-meaning/444196/13 "2008-04-07T06:08:11Z")
[QUOTE=Northern Piper] Ahem. Based on the nickname of the protaganist, I think it’s reasonable to presume that the musician in this fable was playing a [pipe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipe_%28instrument%29), not a [flute](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flute). [/QUOTE] Anything is possible, but I suspect you are way off in left field with thinking that a piper would play a pipe. Seriously, that is pretty embarrassing. My defense is that I did not do it first. Oh, wait, I did. I guess I am a pied piper of misnaming musical instruments. Everyone fell for my evil scheme. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2008, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pied-piper-how-did-it-get-its-current-meaning/444196/14 "2008-04-07T07:20:54Z")
Yes, the allusion is to the children following the magical strains of the Pied Piper, enticed by visions of paradise, only to find themselves shut up in a barren mountain. (The implication is that whatever delights the children glimpse as they enter the mountain are all illusory). ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2008, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pied-piper-how-did-it-get-its-current-meaning/444196/15 "2008-04-07T08:32:22Z")
It’s also the most memorable element of the story - _He stole the children away, by deception_. Never mind that this is presented - in context - as terrible retribution - remembered out of context, the Pied Piper is a bad guy who enacts terrible deception. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2008, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pied-piper-how-did-it-get-its-current-meaning/444196/16 "2008-04-07T15:29:27Z")
The tale carries more than one lesson. To quote Steveland Morris, “When you believe in things you don’t understand, you suffer.” If you make a bargain in a fairy tale, you’d damn well better keep your side. Other fairy tales carry this same lesson. (The Rainmaker and The Talking Eggs, for example) When a man tells you he’ll get rid of your rats or your terrorists, but he won’t explain how, don’t agree to anything. He who calls the tune must pay the piper, and vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![mwbrooks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@mwbrooks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mwbrooks)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2008, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pied-piper-how-did-it-get-its-current-meaning/444196/17 "2008-04-07T15:58:27Z")
[QUOTE=AskNott] If you make a bargain in a fairy tale, you’d damn well better keep your side. [/QUOTE] Shoot. Just stay the heck out of fairy tales if you aren’t ready to deal with a lot of weird-ass crap. Same goes for startup companies.