# Pigeons and Doves - Carabou and Raindeer **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 8, 2012, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pigeons-and-doves-carabou-and-raindeer/618159 "2012-04-08T06:27:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Satellite\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Satellite\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satellite_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pigeons-and-doves-carabou-and-raindeer/618159/21 "2012-04-08T16:09:11Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Elk and moose are both from the deer family, but nobody would ever mistake one for the other. To illustrate the difference so noted: [Elk](http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/media/bull-elk-1869.jpg) [Moose](http://www.cbantlerart.com/images/articles/large/bull_moose.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pigeons-and-doves-carabou-and-raindeer/618159/22 "2012-04-08T16:28:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Foxes are in a different Genus. Genus is an arbitrary category. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pigeons-and-doves-carabou-and-raindeer/618159/23 "2012-04-08T16:59:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think what he was saying is that what Americans call moose, Europeans call elk. I was watching a nature show recently and the narrator kept saying “elk” for “moose” and I had to look it up to find out. Yes. And to complete confusion between the continents with respect to deer species, the animal we call an elk (or wapiti) in North America, is very close to what the Europeans call a “red deer”. They used to be considered the same species, but based on recent DNA evidence, they are now being classed as “Cervus elaphus” and “Cervus canadensis”, rather than the North American animal simply being a subspecies of Cervus elaphus. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pigeons-and-doves-carabou-and-raindeer/618159/24 "2012-04-08T17:06:41Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Genus is an arbitrary category. So is species, as far as that goes. I don’t understand why you chose to lump foxes in with dogs and wolves as examples related to the OP. Can you explain? ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pigeons-and-doves-carabou-and-raindeer/618159/25 "2012-04-08T17:41:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think what he was saying is that what Americans call moose, Europeans call elk. I was watching a nature show recently and the narrator kept saying “elk” for “moose” and I had to look it up to find out. Yeah, I saw that, too. Elk are probably more properly called ‘wapiti’, but Americans can’t be bothered with difficult words. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pigeons-and-doves-carabou-and-raindeer/618159/26 "2012-04-08T17:49:18Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Yeah, I saw that, too. Elk are probably more properly called ‘wapiti’, but Americans can’t be bothered with difficult words. I don’t know that it makes sense to say what the proper word is. I never in my over 50 years heard a moose called an elk until just recently. Wapiti is the Native American (Shawnee) word, sometimes used in English. Moose and elk are the [American] English words. If you asked 100 Americans what a “wapiti” is, I doubt if even 10 would be able to answer. Seems to me that it would be a terrible word to use, in general, since most people wouldn’t understand it. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pigeons-and-doves-carabou-and-raindeer/618159/27 "2012-04-08T18:14:46Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Yeah, I saw that, too. Elk are probably more properly called ‘wapiti’, but Americans can’t be bothered with difficult words. Yes. We should all use words from another language, from another coast. And should have no problems with difficult words that are three consonant-vowel syllables. How do you pronounce your name again? Tcheef-gooey? 😉 > [@Mangetout](#): > > Dolphins and whales (the toothed variety) > Crows and ravens > Foxes/wolves/dogs/etc > Pumpkins and squashes I think taxonomically, dolphin is a type of whale, but not always in common usage. Crows and ravens are different species, they just look very similar. The have slight size, plumage, and behavior differences. Wolves and dogs are the same species. Foxes are not. I don’t think they can breed. The [domesticated silver fox](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox) is to wild fox as dog is to wolf. A completely different species, but I just want you to “awww”:[Fennec foxes](https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1680&bih=832&q=Domesticated+silver+fox&gbv=2&oq=Domesticated+silver+fox&aq=f&aqi=g2g-S8&aql=&gs_l=img.3..0l2j0i24l8.865l1678l0l2135l2l2l0l0l0l0l173l318l0j2l2l0.frgbld.#hl=en&safe=off&gbv=2&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=fennec+fox&oq=fennec+fox&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&gs_l=img.3..0l10.3044l4236l0l4406l10l3l0l0l0l0l1244l1244l7-1l1l0.frgbld.&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=ee0a9226c98a4a1e&biw=1680&bih=832). There are many species of squash, but yes, pumpkins are the same species as some species of squash. The popular game fish “trout” refers to several genera of fish. Some are true trout (rainbow, cutthroat troats), some are char (lake, brook trouts), and some are classified alongside salmon (brown trout) Just a fun fact based on the OP: Although many deer are sexually dimorphic, ALL reindeer have antlers, not just males. If Santa is being pulled by some without antlers, someone didn’t do the research. (Apparently some don’t have antlers, but the majority of females do). And males supposedly lose theirs sooner. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pigeons-and-doves-carabou-and-raindeer/618159/28 "2012-04-08T18:25:42Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > I think taxonomically, dolphin is a type of whale, but not always in common usage. If we’re talking taxonomy, we’re talking science, and “whale” is not a scientific term. The term is cetacean, of the toothed or baleen variety. Dolphins are toothed cetaceans, like [colloquial] Killer Whales or [more scientific] Orcas. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pigeons-and-doves-carabou-and-raindeer/618159/29 "2012-04-08T19:47:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So is species, as far as that goes. I don’t understand why you chose to lump foxes in with dogs and wolves as examples related to the OP. Can you explain? Species is a biological reality, albeit one with fuzzy edges and that’s often hard to nail down. Taxonomy is just a bunch of arbitrary groupings devised by men with beards, based on things like morphological similarity. In many cases, taxonomy is a fair representation of the phylogenetic tree of relatedness, but the correlation is quite loose. There’s no particular reason why we must always assume that two species in different genera are more distantly related to one another than two species in the same genus. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pigeons-and-doves-carabou-and-raindeer/618159/30 "2012-04-08T19:52:09Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Species is a biological reality, albeit one with fuzzy edges and that’s often hard to nail down. Not really. The reality part, that is. It’s a human construct. But you still haven’t explained why you lumped foxes in with wolves. Why not lump in squirrels, too? ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pigeons-and-doves-carabou-and-raindeer/618159/31 "2012-04-08T20:10:05Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > The popular game fish “trout” refers to several genera of fish. Some are true trout (rainbow, cutthroat troats), some are char (lake, brook trouts), and some are classified alongside salmon (brown trout) A lot of people in Alaska refer to grayling as trout, and cutthroat as salmon. It’s a slippery slope. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pigeons-and-doves-carabou-and-raindeer/618159/32 "2012-04-08T20:13:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not really. The reality part, that is. It’s a human construct. Species is reality in the sense that it describes a group of organisms that interbreed with one another (as mentioned, there are fuzzy edges, and the ‘hard to nail down’ bit includes whether we mean ‘can’ or ‘does’ interbreed with one another). Sure, it’s humans that think that means something, but it has tangible reality of a kind that taxonomic descriptions don’t, necessarily - the taxonomic groupings were decided on a different basis. > [@](#): > > But you still haven’t explained why you lumped foxes in with wolves. Why not lump in squirrels, too? The animals we call ‘foxes’ are not a single distinct group, in terms of phylogeny - there are things called foxes sprinkled in amongst pretty much all of the branches of the family tree. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pigeons-and-doves-carabou-and-raindeer/618159/33 "2012-04-08T20:37:14Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Species is reality in the sense that it describes a group of organisms that interbreed with one another (as mentioned, there are fuzzy edges, and the ‘hard to nail down’ bit includes whether we mean ‘can’ or ‘does’ interbreed with one another). Sure, it’s humans that think that means something, but it has tangible reality of a kind that taxonomic descriptions don’t, necessarily - the taxonomic groupings were decided on a different basis. I think I’m going to just agree to disagree in this forum as to take this any further would stray into GD territory. > [@](#): > > The animals we call ‘foxes’ are not a single distinct group, in terms of phylogeny - there are things called foxes sprinkled in amongst pretty much all of the branches of the family tree. OK. In looking at the Wikipedia article, I can see that the Ethiopian wolf is sometimes referred to as a fox. I didn’t know that. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pigeons-and-doves-carabou-and-raindeer/618159/34 "2012-04-08T20:50:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think I’m going to just agree to disagree in this forum as to take this any further would stray into GD territory. I guess it depends on whether you’re talking about species as a purely taxonomic concept, in which case, I would agree, it’s arbitrary, but the term ‘species’ has other uses that are more useful and have more of a grounding in reality. > [@](#): > > OK. In looking at the Wikipedia article, I can see that the Ethiopian wolf is sometimes referred to as a fox. I didn’t know that. Yeah - if you look at [this](http://naontiotami.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/dogs2-1.gif) typical diagram of the phylogenetic relatedness of dogs etc, the nomenclature is pretty mixed (which is what this thread is all about - any system of naming that isn’t based on actual relatedness may appear to lump or split things that don’t deserve it) ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pigeons-and-doves-carabou-and-raindeer/618159/35 "2012-04-08T21:13:18Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > A lot of people in Alaska refer to grayling as trout, and cutthroat as salmon. It’s a slippery slope. My favorite is the Chilean sea “bass” you can find at fancy-ish restaurants. The “real” name for it is Patagonian toothfish and they [look like this](https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sugexp=frgbld&tok=OfEcZm7ngGXDHg_jjW3YwA&cp=12&gs_id=2e&xhr=t&q=patagonian+toothfish&safe=off&biw=1680&bih=832&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&authuser=0&ei=H_6BT-DvIeXjiAKXtciBAw). A bit of euphemism in action. The old school definition for species is if animal A and animal B were to mate but can’t produce offspring, then they are separate species. Of course more recently that is seen to be a very poor metric of classification. Even ligers and tigons can have offspring in rarer circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pigeons-and-doves-carabou-and-raindeer/618159/36 "2012-04-08T21:20:29Z")
What do you mean, an African or a European pigeon? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pigeons-and-doves-carabou-and-raindeer/618159/37 "2012-04-08T22:01:18Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > The old school definition for species is if animal A and animal B were to mate but can’t produce offspring, then they are separate species. Of course more recently that is seen to be a very poor metric of classification. If by “more recently” you mean the whole of recorded history, sure. People have been well aware of the existence of hybrid species for as long as written records have existed. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pigeons-and-doves-carabou-and-raindeer/618159/38 "2012-04-08T22:21:11Z")
Like what? Animals that are usually man-made, like mules, ligers, etc. are not normally fecund. Would we have known about a hybrid species that maintains a stable wild population, even if it sort of looks like another species? Like what I understand from the history of the red wolf. There may have been speculation, but people probably either assumed it was its own thing, or didn’t care. Genetic methods came later to confirm that yes, species X is fertile but a hybrid. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pigeons-and-doves-carabou-and-raindeer/618159/39 "2012-04-08T23:37:03Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Like what? Mules woudl eb the obvious one. > [@](#): > > Genetic methods came later to confirm that yes, species X is fertile but a hybrid. You don;t need genetic evidence to know that your donkey fucked your horse and the horse produced an animals that was a little like both parents. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pigeons-and-doves-carabou-and-raindeer/618159/40 "2012-04-08T23:38:58Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > A lot of people in Alaska refer to grayling as trout, and cutthroat as salmon. It’s a slippery slope. That’s how the salmon can leap their way up it (the slippery slope) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pigeons-and-doves-carabou-and-raindeer/618159.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pigeons-and-doves-carabou-and-raindeer/618159.md?page=3)