# Pilgrimage for Muslims born in and residing in Mecca and Medina **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 10, 2016, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilgrimage-for-muslims-born-in-and-residing-in-mecca-and-medina/765595 "2016-09-10T23:58:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilgrimage-for-muslims-born-in-and-residing-in-mecca-and-medina/765595/21 "2016-09-12T12:37:18Z")
We are reaching maximum capacity. The present Hajj is about ten times the 1945 version. The present government has spent billions on making things better. There have been at least two layers of balconies around the Cube. There are now trains to supplement the buses that carry people hither and yon. The camping arrangements have been hugely improved after a series of horrid fires. But you have to wonder if circling the cub on the Third Balcony and then waiting in line for a bus to take you to a huge building were you cast pebbles at what seems to be concrete bridge abutments and then being herded like cattle… Is this a religious, spiritual experience? So far yes, people tell me, but it is hard to see how we can go much further. Look at the huge hotels that circle the Grand Mosque. On the other hand, perhaps I am geezing out. Isn’t it nice that so many people can do this? Isn’t it good that prices to make Hajj have never been lower? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilgrimage-for-muslims-born-in-and-residing-in-mecca-and-medina/765595/22 "2016-09-12T13:39:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Paul in Saudi** : > > Many of my student who live in Mecca and Medina have not yet made Hajj. They tell me that they want to wait until they get married so they can take their wives. Isn’t the requirement just _at least_ once in your life, and isn’t it considered a good thing to do it multiple times if you can? It seems to me that, if you’re already living there, the cost should be fairly low, so why not just go once when you’re young, and then again once you’re married? ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilgrimage-for-muslims-born-in-and-residing-in-mecca-and-medina/765595/23 "2016-09-12T14:48:31Z")
What is the penalty for procrastination? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilgrimage-for-muslims-born-in-and-residing-in-mecca-and-medina/765595/24 "2016-09-12T16:04:38Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Is this a religious, spiritual experience? So far yes, people tell me, but it is hard to see how we can go much further. Islam has always placed a major emphasis on the community. So I would guess many Muslims on Hajj find it a religious experience because they are physically sharing it with millions of their fellow Muslims. The overwhelming crowd itself becomes part of the experience. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilgrimage-for-muslims-born-in-and-residing-in-mecca-and-medina/765595/25 "2016-09-12T16:27:11Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Isn’t the requirement just _at least_ once in your life, and isn’t it considered a good thing to do it multiple times if you can? It seems to me that, if you’re already living there, the cost should be fairly low, so why not just go once when you’re young, and then again once you’re married? Well, my students are basically college kids. You have to pay for the Hajj yourself, and I suppose at this stage in their lives they simply cannot afford it, or they have other priorities. Just by the way, the various Ministries have sent everyone (including me) scary text messages telling us not to try to make an unlicensed Hajj. They are cracking down. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilgrimage-for-muslims-born-in-and-residing-in-mecca-and-medina/765595/26 "2016-09-14T00:18:58Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Interesting. Sounds exactly like some similar protocol in Jewish affairs when a discrete physical situation must be re-formulated for different people. Yes, they totally cribbed off of you guys. 😃 They admit it themselves! ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilgrimage-for-muslims-born-in-and-residing-in-mecca-and-medina/765595/27 "2016-09-14T00:33:46Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > As the number of people in the world, the number of Muslims, and the number that can afford to travel to Mecca all increase, has anybody figured out what the capacity is of Mecca to absorb all these people? How many could participate in the hajj in a given year before it becomes completely impossible? Or are we already there; that article mentions a trampling last year that killed hundreds. The travel writer Ibn Jubayr in the 12th century compared Mecca, in a little valley “a bowshot or less in width,” with a woman’s womb when she becomes pregnant as it expands to accommodate fetal growth. Also, lately, the Saudi overlords have been demolishing whatever remains of the historic old city and replacing it with high rises and hotels. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilgrimage-for-muslims-born-in-and-residing-in-mecca-and-medina/765595/28 "2016-09-14T14:44:08Z")
Some old and new photos of Mecca here: [Mecca Then and Now, 126 Years of Growth - The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2015/09/mecca-then-and-now-128-years-of-growth/408013/) The [Ajyad Fortess](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajyad_Fortress) was destroyed, along with most of the hill it stood on, to make way for the massive new hotel. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilgrimage-for-muslims-born-in-and-residing-in-mecca-and-medina/765595/29 "2016-09-14T15:30:33Z")
I read about the destruction of historic sites in Mecca in an [article](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/01/opinion/the-destruction-of-mecca.html) a couple of years ago. The house owned by the family of Muhammad’s first wife was destroyed as were other historic sites, some a thousand years old. Seems a shame. ---
**Author:** ![Waltzes\_with\_Cacti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90ced4/32.png) [@Waltzes\_with\_Cacti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waltzes_with_Cacti)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2016, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilgrimage-for-muslims-born-in-and-residing-in-mecca-and-medina/765595/30 "2016-09-16T22:52:00Z")
> [@Arkcon](#): > > Do people actually live and work in Mecca? What do they do? Here’s an article from _The Guardian_ about the people who live in Mecca: > **[After the hajj: Mecca residents grow hostile to changes in the holy city](https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/sep/14/mecca-hajj-pilgrims-tourism)** > > As millions of hajj pilgrims return home, Mecca’s two million locals are left struggling with the impacts of their changing city. Much of old Mecca has been razed and rebuilt to make room for growing tourism, forcing out residents ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2016, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilgrimage-for-muslims-born-in-and-residing-in-mecca-and-medina/765595/31 "2016-09-18T22:06:07Z")
I used the term “overlords” for the Saudi establishment advisedly. Nowadays they pride themselves as “servants” of the two sacred places. Mecca and Medina are part of al-Hijaz, an important historical region whose name has been removed by the Saudi regime. The Saudis would prefer to obscure the history that they came to the two holy places (Mecca and Medina) as invaders, murderers, and Hajj-stoppers. Twice—in 1802 and 1924. The first time, al-Hijaz was a province of the Ottoman Empire, and the Ottoman suzerainty of Egypt kicked the Saudi Wahhabis out in 1812. The second time, al-Hijaz was an independent kingdom that the Saudi Wahhabis simply obliterated. The Saudis are the products of Najd, historically, culturally, and geographically a very different region and one with a bad reputation. The Prophet is quoted as warning that trouble comes out of Najd. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilgrimage-for-muslims-born-in-and-residing-in-mecca-and-medina/765595/32 "2016-09-19T15:35:36Z")
We’ve discussed this before on the SDMB. If you look up the total number of Moslems and the total number of people who can fit into the area where a hajj has to be during the time of the year that a Moslem has to be there for it to be a hajj, it’s clearly impossible for more than about a fifth of all Moslems to ever do a hajj, even if every Moslem was able to afford it and lived an average lifespan. It may be even a smaller proportion than that, perhaps as small as one-twentieth of all Moslems. You should be able to find these previous discussions by searching for the threads about them. My apologies for not searching myself, but I’m on vacation and only have a limited amount of Internet time until I get back home. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilgrimage-for-muslims-born-in-and-residing-in-mecca-and-medina/765595/33 "2016-09-19T17:25:46Z")
I had a UPS driver who was called “Hadji” and so i remarked, “does that mean you made the pilgrimage?” And he was gratified and surprised that I knew that. I got extra good service for a while, until they transferred him. ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilgrimage-for-muslims-born-in-and-residing-in-mecca-and-medina/765595/34 "2016-09-19T19:26:54Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > The [Saudi Arabia embassy online visa application](https://enjazit.com.sa/VisaPerson) has “tourism” as one type of visa to be issued. The Saudi government has gone back & forth quite a lot over the last couple of years as to whether to offer tourist visas. They [announced a limited tourist visa program in 2013,](http://www.arabnews.com/news/488301) [suspended it in 2014,](http://www.arabianbusiness.com/saudi-suspends-tourist-visa-scheme-543331.html#.V-A4i5MrKV4) and then [recently announced plans to start issuing tourist visas again.](http://www.arabianbusiness.com/saudi-arabia-plans-new-visa-regulations-boost-tourism-629812.html#.V-A8IJMrKV4) (That last article also mentions another limited tourist visa program that ran from 2006–2010.) There’s an ongoing struggle in Saudi Arabia between those who would like to bring in the money of foreign tourists, and those who fear that the tourists would bring “Western values” into the country with them. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2016, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilgrimage-for-muslims-born-in-and-residing-in-mecca-and-medina/765595/35 "2016-09-19T20:30:49Z")
Only Muslims are allowed into Mecca, is that correct? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilgrimage-for-muslims-born-in-and-residing-in-mecca-and-medina/765595/36 "2016-09-21T17:48:27Z")
Yes, correct. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilgrimage-for-muslims-born-in-and-residing-in-mecca-and-medina/765595/37 "2016-09-21T20:30:56Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Only Muslims are allowed into Mecca, is that correct? You have to apply for a special visa to enter Mecca that’s distinct from the one needed to enter Saudi Arabia. The application for this visa requires you to submit a statement from a recognized Muslim clergyman that you are a Muslim. There are checkpoints around Mecca that you have to pass through and police officers inside Mecca who will ask to see your special visa. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilgrimage-for-muslims-born-in-and-residing-in-mecca-and-medina/765595/38 "2016-09-21T20:55:54Z")
“Recognized Muslim clergyman”? We’ve been told in previous threads that there is no such thing, that anyone can read the Quran and hold himself out to be a Muslim clergyman. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilgrimage-for-muslims-born-in-and-residing-in-mecca-and-medina/765595/39 "2016-09-21T21:02:45Z")
Here, for instance, Ramira chides us for thinking that Muslim clergymen need qualifications as do Christian clergymen. > [@Muslims Who Are Too Or Infirm To Bow Down In Prayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-who-are-too-or-infirm-to-bow-down-in-prayer/740345/25): > > It is useful to repeat, in Islam there is no idea of the cleric or the priest. Is it hard for many to understand this, but it simply is not existing. > > AK84 correctly highlights > > > [@Muslims Who Are Too Or Infirm To Bow Down In Prayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/muslims-who-are-too-or-infirm-to-bow-down-in-prayer/740345/2): > > > > The decision to do so is yours alone. > > It is true in fact about all things in Islam. > Some people of course like to get the fatwa (an opinion) of a scholar because that is how they are, and it seems to me that converts in the west can never quite shake their orientation to the idea of religious priesthoods, but it is not necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2016, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilgrimage-for-muslims-born-in-and-residing-in-mecca-and-medina/765595/40 "2016-09-22T05:26:59Z")
Obviously “clergyman” was a poor choice of words unbefitting Islam, but still, a technical difference. They just meant mosque officials—administrators or imams. Lack of ordained clergy does not mean lack of organized Islamic communities who can certify a person’s religious affiliation. In practice, in Muslim and non-Muslim-majority countries alike, people going to Hajj join a group tour organized by their local mosque or Islamic center, with religious officials who handle the administrative arrangements for the group like visas and everything. All the average hajji has to do is pay the tour organizer and follow along. If an individual or family goes without a tour group, then they’re on the hook for arranging their religious certification and Hajj visas themselves. You can either buy a package deal or DIY. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilgrimage-for-muslims-born-in-and-residing-in-mecca-and-medina/765595.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilgrimage-for-muslims-born-in-and-residing-in-mecca-and-medina/765595.md?page=3)