You normally get to the destination with more than just the 30 minutes fixed reserve. You’d normally have enough to go-around, fly to an alternate airport, and land there with 30 minutes. But there are plenty of times when you use more fuel than expected en route (extra holding, diverting around weather, stronger headwinds, unable to get clearance to fly as high as you want, etc etc) and then you might arrive with comfortably more than the 30 minutes reserve but not enough to fly a go-around and another approach.
But why would he want that? Because it’s his pet runway? I think not. I think, because it was safer.
Who was damned? I want the pilot to land the plane safely whether I’m on it or not!
Just to clarify a couple points here.
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“that plane can land in crosswinds up to 40 knots” is misleading. The plane is FORBIDDEN from attempting to land in a crosswind over 40 knots. This is a very different statement of the same facts.
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This event occurred in US airspace. OF COURSE the pilot did not use “mayday” or “PanPan” because the US traffic controllers DO NOT RECOGNIZE these calls. They require the phrase “declare an emergency”, and nothing else.
There are several documented cases of a non-US pilot calling “pan-pan”, and the ATC repeatedly asking “so, do you want to declare an emergency or not?”
How cumbersome is it to organize a switch from the 22 runways to the 31 runways? Since ATC was forced to do that switch anyway (and presumably the 31s were better suited to the weather) was any thought given to continuing with the 31 runways rather than switching back to the 22s after American 2 Heavy landed?
Obligatory Cabin Pressure reference.
It’s much easier to just fit one jet into the other runway rather than changing everyone. I don’t know if it applies to JFK but it’s not uncommon for the runways in use at one airport to affect the runways at neighbouring airports. This partly explains why the runway mode might persist in unfavourable weather conditions. ATC may be waiting for a lull in the schedule to make the change with minimum disruption to the “flow”. Again, speaking generally.
I fly in the NY airspace all the time, and yes, lots of area airports are affected when a major like JFK changes their flow. You’ve got three big airports, JFK / LGA / EWR, plus some very busy general aviation airports like Teterboro and White Plains, plus some regional fields such as Islip. Controllers talk about “turning the airport around” when conditions compel them to switch runways, and it’s a non-trivial event in that kind of airspace.
I can’t find historic ATIS but [metars](station,valid,tmpf,dwpf,relh,drct,sknt,p01i,alti,mslp,vsby,gust,skyc1,skyc2,skyc3,skyc4,skyl1,skyl2,skyl3,skyl4,wxcodes,ice_accretion_1hr,ice_accretion_3hr,ice_accretion_6hr,peak_wind_gust,peak_wind_drct,peak_wind_time,feel,metar JFK,2010-05-10 00:51,48.92,24.08,37.46,320.00,19.00,M,30.09,1019.00,10.00,32.00,BKN,BKN, ,M,6000.00,25000.00,M,M,M,M,M,M,34.00,340.00,2010-05-10 00:12,41.81,KJFK 100051Z 32019G32KT 10SM BKN060 BKN250 09/M04 A3009 RMK AO2 PK WND 34034/0012 SLP190 T00941044 JFK,2010-05-10 01:51,48.02,24.98,40.22,320.00,20.00,M,30.12,1019.80,10.00,24.00,SCT, , ,M,6000.00,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,29.00,320.00,2010-05-10 01:14,40.42,KJFK 100151Z 32020G24KT 10SM SCT060 09/M04 A3012 RMK AO2 PK WND 32029/0114 SLP198 T00891039 JFK,2010-05-10 02:51,46.94,24.98,41.89,320.00,21.00,M,30.13,1020.30,10.00,32.00,SCT, , ,M,6500.00,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,34.00,310.00,2010-05-10 02:16,38.78,KJFK 100251Z 32021G32KT 10SM SCT065 08/M04 A3013 RMK AO2 PK WND 31034/0216 SLP203 T00831039 51025 JFK,2010-05-10 03:51,46.04,24.98,43.34,320.00,17.00,M,30.15,1020.80,10.00,24.00,FEW, , ,M,6500.00,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,32.00,330.00,2010-05-10 02:58,38.47,KJFK 100351Z 32017G24KT 10SM FEW065 08/M04 A3015 RMK AO2 PK WND 33032/0258 SLP208 T00781039 JFK,2010-05-10 04:51,44.96,24.08,43.49,330.00,14.00,M,30.15,1021.00,10.00,22.00,FEW, , ,M,6500.00,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,26.00,320.00,2010-05-10 03:56,37.87,KJFK 100451Z 33014G22KT 10SM FEW065 07/M04 A3015 RMK AO2 PK WND 32026/0356 SLP210 T00721044 401330072 JFK,2010-05-10 05:51,44.96,24.08,43.49,330.00,13.00,M,30.15,1020.90,10.00,21.00,FEW, , ,M,6500.00,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,38.17,KJFK 100551Z 33013G21KT 10SM FEW065 07/M04 A3015 RMK AO2 SLP209 T00721044 10100 20072 50007 JFK,2010-05-10 06:51,44.96,24.08,43.49,310.00,18.00,M,30.15,1021.10,10.00,24.00,FEW, , ,M,6500.00,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,36.81,KJFK 100651Z 31018G24KT 10SM FEW065 07/M04 A3015 RMK AO2 SLP211 T00721044 JFK,2010-05-10 07:51,44.06,24.08,45.01,310.00,12.00,M,30.16,1021.40,10.00,20.00,FEW, , ,M,6000.00,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,37.35,KJFK 100751Z 31012G20KT 10SM FEW060 07/M04 A3016 RMK AO2 SLP214 T00671044 JFK,2010-05-10 08:51,42.98,23.00,44.83,310.00,13.00,M,30.18,1022.00,10.00,-99.00,FEW, , ,M,6000.00,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,35.64,KJFK 100851Z 31013KT 10SM FEW060 06/M05 A3018 RMK AO2 SLP220 T00611050 53010 JFK,2010-05-10 09:51,42.98,24.08,46.91,310.00,12.00,M,30.20,1022.60,10.00,21.00,FEW, , ,M,6000.00,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,35.98,KJFK 100951Z 31012G21KT 10SM FEW060 06/M04 A3020 RMK AO2 SLP226 T00611044 JFK,2010-05-10 10:51,44.06,24.98,46.73,320.00,14.00,M,30.22,1023.20,10.00,19.00,CLR, , ,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,36.71,KJFK 101051Z 32014G19KT 10SM CLR 07/M04 A3022 RMK AO2 SLP232 T00671039 JFK,2010-05-10 11:51,46.04,24.98,43.34,320.00,15.00,M,30.23,1023.60,10.00,20.00,FEW, , ,M,5500.00,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,38.98,KJFK 101151Z 32015G20KT 10SM FEW055 08/M04 A3023 RMK AO2 SLP236 T00781039 10078 20056 51016 JFK,2010-05-10 12:51,48.02,24.98,40.22,300.00,13.00,M,30.23,1023.70,10.00,21.00,CLR, , ,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,42.09,KJFK 101251Z 30013G21KT 10SM CLR 09/M04 A3023 RMK AO2 SLP237 T00891039 JFK,2010-05-10 13:51,51.08,24.08,34.57,320.00,13.00,M,30.23,1023.70,10.00,22.00,SCT, , ,M,6000.00,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,27.00,310.00,2010-05-10 13:28,51.08,KJFK 101351Z 32013G22KT 10SM SCT060 11/M04 A3023 RMK AO2 PK WND 31027/1328 SLP237 T01061044 JFK,2010-05-10 14:51,53.96,21.92,28.39,330.00,20.00,M,30.23,1023.50,10.00,27.00,SCT, , ,M,7000.00,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,30.00,300.00,2010-05-10 14:00,53.96,KJFK 101451Z 33020G27KT 10SM SCT070 12/M06 A3023 RMK AO2 PK WND 30030/1400 SLP235 T01221056 58001 JFK,2010-05-10 15:51,55.04,24.08,29.89,310.00,18.00,M,30.22,1023.20,10.00,25.00,SCT, , ,M,8000.00,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,28.00,310.00,2010-05-10 14:53,55.04,KJFK 101551Z 31018G25KT 10SM SCT080 13/M04 A3022 RMK AO2 PK WND 31028/1453 SLP232 T01281044 JFK,2010-05-10 16:51,57.92,21.92,24.60,320.00,20.00,M,30.20,1022.50,10.00,26.00,SCT, , ,M,8500.00,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,28.00,290.00,2010-05-10 16:16,57.92,KJFK 101651Z 32020G26KT 10SM SCT085 14/M06 A3020 RMK AO2 PK WND 29028/1616 SLP225 T01441056 JFK,2010-05-10 17:51,59.00,21.92,23.66,290.00,15.00,M,30.18,1022.10,10.00,24.00,FEW, , ,M,8500.00,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,29.00,310.00,2010-05-10 17:05,59.00,KJFK 101751Z 29015G24KT 10SM FEW085 15/M06 A3018 RMK AO2 PK WND 31029/1705 SLP221 T01501056 10156 20078 58014 JFK,2010-05-10 18:51,60.08,21.92,22.77,290.00,17.00,M,30.18,1021.90,10.00,25.00,FEW, , ,M,8500.00,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,28.00,300.00,2010-05-10 18:27,60.08,KJFK 101851Z 29017G25KT 10SM FEW085 16/M06 A3018 RMK AO2 PK WND 30028/1827 SLP219 T01561056 JFK,2010-05-10 19:51,62.06,21.02,20.43,330.00,14.00,M,30.18,1021.90,10.00,28.00,CLR, , ,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,29.00,320.00,2010-05-10 19:25,62.06,KJFK 101951Z 33014G28KT 10SM CLR 17/M06 A3018 RMK AO2 PK WND 32029/1925 SLP219 T01671061 JFK,2010-05-10 20:51,62.06,21.92,21.22,320.00,16.00,M,30.19,1022.40,10.00,25.00,FEW, , ,M,9000.00,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,29.00,300.00,2010-05-10 20:38,62.06,KJFK 102051Z 32016G25KT 10SM FEW090 17/M06 A3019 RMK AO2 PK WND 30029/2038 SLP224 T01671056 53003 JFK,2010-05-10 22:51,57.92,17.06,19.99,320.00,18.00,M,30.23,1023.50,10.00,28.00,FEW, , ,M,9000.00,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,28.00,320.00,2010-05-10 22:47,57.92,KJFK 102251Z 32018G28KT 10SM FEW090 14/M08 A3023 RMK AO2 PK WND 32028/2247 SLP235 T01441083 JFK,2010-05-10 23:51,57.02,15.98,19.70,320.00,18.00,M,30.26,1024.60,10.00,26.00,FEW, , ,M,9000.00,M,M,M,M,M,M,M,28.00,320.00,2010-05-10 23:20,57.02,KJFK 102351Z 32018G26KT 10SM FEW090 14/M09 A3026 RMK AO2 PK WND 32028/2320 SLP246 T01391089 10167 20139 53023 $)are available.
It looks like the winds favored the 31 runways the whole day. So there must be an overriding reason to use 22. If 31R was down then that doubles the traffic load of the airport. Better to use 2 runways in crappy weather rather than stack them up and cause more diversions.
Just a guess.
metars link.
What are the crosswind limitations that you are limited to if you don’t mind the question?
Same question to Richard Pearse.
The bizjet I fly has a demonstrated crosswind of 30 knots. This isn’t a limitation, it just means a test pilot at one time was able to hold the plane on the centerline with a direct 30 knot crosswind.
But I’ll say again, the fact that a certain amount of wind may be within the aircraft’s envelope doesn’t make it safe or smart to accept those conditions for landing. I’ve always been good at dealing with wind and am very confident at handling the aircraft under rough conditions. But I’d be a fool not to seek alternatives when faced with winds that challenge the capabilities of the test pilots who certified the airplane.
I wonder - do we have any reason to think the other pilot disagreed with the action that was taken? To me, that would be telling.
It’s a money issue. An extra fifteen minutes of reserve equals around six thousand pounds of fuel, which the airline would have to pay for. That means they can carry around twenty less passengers, who would have been paying the airline.
If it’s a wide body that’s 1 or 2 positions of freight in the belly.
Thanks. I probably asked a question that didn’t apply to your situation. I’ve dealt with carriers that limit their pilots to a specific crosswind component to a specific a/c type. I watched them to go-arounds because the wind picked up when a similar a/c from a different carrier went ahead and landed. It was a 15 knot crosswind component. It might even have been 10 but I’m sure it was not more than 15.
10 knots is the usual tailwind limitation - I’ve had that on the last three jets I’ve flown. And guess what - I’ve encountered times where I felt pressured to land when it was approaching or brushing against that limit. Once it nearly came to grief, and that was on a perfectly dry runway. Result? I’m pretty forceful in pushing ATC to give me a better option when tailwinds are a factor, even when under my permitted limitation.
I mention this because maybe the pilot(s) of the airplane we’re talking about had had a bad experience with a stiff crosswind before. If their judgement was that it wasn’t safe or advisable, then they shouldn’t attempt that approach.
This is a big “depends”. Various structural weight limits mean that a certain amount of fuel can be carried without affecting the ability to carry passengers or freight. For example, a B777-300 can plan to land with about 1.5 hours worth of fuel and still carry maximum payload (assuming the runway is long enough for a landing at max landing weight). An A320 has a similar split in weights allowing for around 1.5 hours of fuel in the tanks on landing.
If you need even more reserve fuel than that then you start eating into your payload. Lower than structural take-off and landing weight limits can also have an affect.
The reason the boss doesn’t like you flying around with a lot of excess fuel is that it costs fuel to carry fuel. To carry an extra 1000 kg of fuel you burn an extra ~30 kg of fuel per hour. Multiply that by the many thousands of hours an airline flies each year and the dollars start adding up. It’s mostly academic on narrow body short haul jets, but if you want to arrive with an extra hour of fuel in a B777 after a 10 hour flight, you can’t just add 7000 kg to your fuel uplift because you will burn 2100 kg just carrying it. You need to add closer to 10,000 kg which now costs 3000 kg.
35 knots is the demonstrated crosswind. As Llama said, it’s just what the test pilot encountered on the day they did crosswind demonstrations.
Captains and “experienced” FOs (more than 200 hours on type) can land up to the limit, inexperienced FOs are limited to 50% of the limit.
Go-arounds for a 15 knot crosswind seems a bit restrictive.
The point is not which runway was safer. The issue is was there a real emergency so that the plane had to land on the runway immediately and couldn’t be put into a pattern to land on the preferred runway like ATC was trying to do?
And secondly if a pilot calls an emergency just to get priority but there really was no emergency what happens?
I don’t know. The inconvenience of having to do paper work is normally enough to prevent pilots from declaring an emergency even when they probable should. I’ve never heard of someone declaring an emergency when they didn’t have one just so they could get to the hotel 15 minutes earlier.
I don’t know. The inconvenience of having to do paper work is normally enough to prevent pilots from declaring an emergency even when they probable should. I’ve never heard of someone declaring an emergency when they didn’t have one just so they could get to the hotel 15 minutes earlier.