# Pilots - any consensus on what went wrong with the Leonard Skynard crash? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 29, 2016, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilots-any-consensus-on-what-went-wrong-with-the-leonard-skynard-crash/761236 "2016-07-29T22:38:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilots-any-consensus-on-what-went-wrong-with-the-leonard-skynard-crash/761236/1 "2016-07-29T22:38:31Z")
How could experienced pilots screw up so badly in a proven and reliable passenger plane? Convair CV-240 are still used some places today. They ran out of gas and crashed a couple hours drive from my hometown. Right on the Mississippi / Louisiana border. They were heading to Baton Rouge. Their fuel was way,way,way short. How could the pilots fail to notice until it was too late? I always glance at my gas gauge on car trips. Even when I know a tank will get me there. Pilots did try an emergency landing. But too late. Toxicology reports showed no drug/alcohol in the pilots. > **[Lynyrd Skynyrd plane crash](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Convair_CV-240_crash)** > > On October 20, 1977, a Convair CV-240 passenger aircraft ran out of fuel and crashed in a wooded area near Gillsburg, Mississippi, United States. Chartered by the rock band Lynyrd Skynyrd from L & J Company of Addison, Texas, it was flying from Greenville, South Carolina, to Baton Rouge, Louisiana, crashing near its destination. > Lynyrd Skynyrd lead vocalist and founding member Ronnie Van Zant, guitarist and vocalist Steve Gaines, backing vocalist Cassie Gaines (Steve's older sister), assistant... > [@](#): > > On October 20, 1977, a Convair CV-240 chartered by the rock band Lynyrd Skynyrd from L&J Company ofAddison, Texas, ran out of fuel and crashed inGillsburg, Mississippi, near the end of its flight fromGreenville, South Carolina, to Baton Rouge, Louisiana. > > Lead vocalist/founding member Ronnie Van Zant, guitarist/vocalist Steve Gaines, backing vocalistCassie Gaines (Steve’s older sister), assistant road manager Dean Kilpatrick, pilot Walter McCreary and co-pilot William Gray all died as a result of the crash. Twenty others survived. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilots-any-consensus-on-what-went-wrong-with-the-leonard-skynard-crash/761236/2 "2016-07-29T22:44:49Z")
I’m impressed that considering the band’s name was in the article, you still managed to not only spell it wrongly, but wrongly in two wildly different ways. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilots-any-consensus-on-what-went-wrong-with-the-leonard-skynard-crash/761236/3 "2016-07-29T23:07:13Z")
I only spelled it once. The other is a direct quote from Wikipedia. I always forget they don’t use the conventional spelling for Leonard. Just a brain fart I’ve never overcome. Great interview with drummer Artemis Pyle. Ex Marine Sargeant that walked out to get help. [https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DcXKYAdDJ2Bw&ved=0ahUKEwiA35jq4JnOAhUUHGMKHQYFDQ4QtwIIGzAA&usg=AFQjCNGLvdOwaWrqYfGlHfe1ZBcUWUnitw](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DcXKYAdDJ2Bw&ved=0ahUKEwiA35jq4JnOAhUUHGMKHQYFDQ4QtwIIGzAA&usg=AFQjCNGLvdOwaWrqYfGlHfe1ZBcUWUnitw) ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilots-any-consensus-on-what-went-wrong-with-the-leonard-skynard-crash/761236/4 "2016-07-29T23:13:27Z")
Well if you read the Wikipedia article: > [@](#): > > Pyle maintains in the Howard Stern interview that the fuel gauge in the older-model plane malfunctioned and the pilots had failed to manually check the tanks before taking off. In his book Lynyrd Skynyrd: Remembering the Free Birds of Southern Rock, Gene Odom makes an accusation that co-pilot William Gray was impaired because he had spent part of the previous night snorting cocaine; the toxicology reports from both pilots’ autopsies had found them to be clean for drugs and alcohol.[1]:6 ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilots-any-consensus-on-what-went-wrong-with-the-leonard-skynard-crash/761236/5 "2016-07-29T23:27:31Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > …Pilots did try an emergency landing… Absent fuel, it wasn’t as though attempting an emergency landing was a creative optional idea that they dreamed up out of nowhere. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilots-any-consensus-on-what-went-wrong-with-the-leonard-skynard-crash/761236/6 "2016-07-29T23:30:32Z")
I saw that. But how could experienced passenger plane pilots screw up like this? This was a passenger plane. Not some Cessna charter with a inexperienced pilot. There’s a youtube interview with Gene Odem (childhood friend on the plane) that claims the auto rich position was on. That it burns 25 gallons extra per hour. Don’t know if he’s right or not. I guess that’s like a choke on a old car? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilots-any-consensus-on-what-went-wrong-with-the-leonard-skynard-crash/761236/7 "2016-07-29T23:42:20Z")
If you think that’s bad, the [Gimli Glider](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider) was a 767 with 69 people on board that ran out of fuel through a serious of human errors, including confusion between metric and imperial units. The story of the dead stick landing is remarkable - nobody killed or seriously injured. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilots-any-consensus-on-what-went-wrong-with-the-leonard-skynard-crash/761236/8 "2016-07-29T23:45:25Z")
He was right. Odom was right. The pilot was very experienced. Surprised he ignored a maintenance issue like this. > [@](#): > > Pilot Certificate #1804920, dated September 12, 1977 with type ratings in the DC-3, Convair 240, 340, and 440 aircraft. He had accrued a total of 6,801 flight hours, 68 of which were in the Convair aircraft. > **[midair](http://www.prop-liners.com/lynyard%20skynyrd.htm)** > > Prop-Liners of America specialized in the Restoration andExhibition of Propeller Driven Airliners. Air Shows a Specialty. > [@](#): > > There was no evidence of any malfunction of the aircraft or its control system. The propulsion system was operating and was producing power until fuel was exhausted. The right engine had been malfunctioning for some time and caused the flight crew to operate the engine on auto-rich mixture during the accident flight and during previous flights in order to obtain an acceptable level of performance. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilots-any-consensus-on-what-went-wrong-with-the-leonard-skynard-crash/761236/9 "2016-07-29T23:49:53Z")
I know people fuck up. I was curious to hear from the boards pilots. How they view this crash. How preventable it was. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilots-any-consensus-on-what-went-wrong-with-the-leonard-skynard-crash/761236/10 "2016-07-30T00:34:20Z")
Lots of them seem very preventable in hindsight. And this one may well have been, but the fact is good pilots are human and sometimes screw up. This has been very successfully mitigated in the last few decades by some big changes in how we do things as flight crews. For example, checklist usage is more detailed. I fly a light jet and my company’s checklist for engine pre-start includes a fuel check. Three times in my career I’ve seen this check prevent a problem. It still might have been caught further down the line, but having that one small item there on the checklist is a big deal. We’ve also changed how flight crews interact. It used to be, if you were a first officer, you sat down, shut up and didn’t touch anything without the captain telling you to. That’s been completely turned on its head in the last 25 or so years. Now there is an emphasis on both crew members communicating, being fully involved in all decisions and double-checking each other. Prior to these kinds of sea changes, accidents of this sort were way more common. That’s not identify any one, precise reason for this particular crash. But it was in a different time in terms of how flying works. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilots-any-consensus-on-what-went-wrong-with-the-leonard-skynard-crash/761236/11 "2016-07-30T00:41:36Z")
As a General Aviation pilot, I was taught that fuel gauges are notoriously inaccurate. When I was actively flying, I always visually checked the fuel (as specified on the checklist) to make sure it was up to the tabs (because I have no problem ‘tankering’ fuel). When I had my biennial a couple of years ago, we used a calibrated dipstick. Granted, it’s not as easy visually checking the fuel in a Convair 240; but IMO there’s virtually no excuse for running out of fuel ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilots-any-consensus-on-what-went-wrong-with-the-leonard-skynard-crash/761236/12 "2016-07-30T00:45:32Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > I’m impressed that considering the band’s name was in the article, you still managed to not only spell it wrongly, but wrongly in two wildly different ways. “Leonard Skynard” – brilliant. From now on, I’m always gonna think of that one Star Trek guy as “Lynyrd Nymoy” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilots-any-consensus-on-what-went-wrong-with-the-leonard-skynard-crash/761236/13 "2016-07-30T01:07:38Z")
Maybe a free bird flew into the engine? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilots-any-consensus-on-what-went-wrong-with-the-leonard-skynard-crash/761236/14 "2016-07-30T02:16:23Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Maybe a free bird flew into the engine? Yngyne fylyre due to byrd stryke, rather than fuel yxhaustyn? Have we ruled out CFYT? ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilots-any-consensus-on-what-went-wrong-with-the-leonard-skynard-crash/761236/15 "2016-07-30T03:06:44Z")
Thank you Llama Llogophile and Johnny L.A. for weighing in. This was the day the music died for my generation. I was in 10th grade. I remember the radio stations playing Skynyrd’s music non-stop for several days in a row. I had all their albums. Wore them out on my cheep record player. The senselessness of the crash always bugged me. Your bird ran out of gas and crashed? WTH? But that’s what happened. SNAFU in the truest sense. The three Van Zant brothers left a lasting legacy with Skynyrd and 38 Special. I think there would have been a third great Southern Rock band if Johnny Van Zant didn’t take over in Ronnie’s old band. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilots-any-consensus-on-what-went-wrong-with-the-leonard-skynard-crash/761236/16 "2016-07-30T03:55:53Z")
Here’s what the NTSB had to say: > **[CAROL](https://carol.ntsb.gov)** > > Case Analysis and Reporting Online or CAROL is used to query NTSB investigations NTSB Identification: DCA78AA001 14 CFR Part 135 Nonscheduled operation of L & J COMPANY Aircraft: CONVAIR 240, registration: N55VM * * * ## FILE DATE LOCATION AIRCRAFT DATA INJURIES FLIGHT PILOT DATA F S M/N PURPOSE 3-3896 77/10/20 GILLSBURG,MS CONVAIR 240 CR- 2 0 0 COMMERCIAL AIRLINE TRANSPORT, AGE TIME - 1852 N55VM PX- 4 19 1 AIR TAXI-PASSG 34, 6802 TOTAL HOURS, 68 DAMAGE-DESTROYED OT- 0 0 0 IN TYPE, INSTRUMENT RATED. DEPARTURE POINT INTENDED DESTINATION GREENVILLE,SC BATON ROUGE,LA TYPE OF ACCIDENT PHASE OF OPERATION ENGINE FAILURE OR MALFUNCTION IN FLIGHT: NORMAL CRUISE COLLIDED WITH: TREES LANDING: FINAL APPROACH PROBABLE CAUSE(S) PILOT IN COMMAND - MISMANAGEMENT OF FUEL MISCELLANEOUS ACTS,CONDITIONS - INATTENTIVE TO FUEL SUPPLY MISCELLANEOUS ACTS,CONDITIONS - FUEL EXHAUSTION FACTOR(S) PILOT IN COMMAND - INADEQUATE PREFLIGHT PREPARATION AND/OR PLANNING POWERPLANT - MISCELLANEOUS: OTHER COMPLETE POWER LOSS - COMPLETE ENGINE FAILURE/FLAMEOUT-2 ENGINES EMERGENCY CIRCUMSTANCES - FORCED LANDING OFF AIRPORT ON LAND REMARKS- R ENG MALFUNCTION OF UNDETERMINED NATURE RESULTED IN HIGHER THAN NORMAL FUEL CONSUMPTION. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilots-any-consensus-on-what-went-wrong-with-the-leonard-skynard-crash/761236/17 "2016-07-30T04:43:17Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Thank you Llama Llogophile and Johnny L.A. for weighing in. > > This was the day the music died for my generation. I was in 10th grade. I remember the radio stations playing Skynyrd’s music non-stop for several days in a row. I had all their albums. Wore them out on my cheep record player. The senselessness of the crash always bugged me. Your bird ran out of gas and crashed? WTH? But that’s what happened. SNAFU in the truest sense. > > The three Van Zant brothers left a lasting legacy with Skynyrd and 38 Special. I think there would have been a third great Southern Rock band if Johnny Van Zant didn’t take over in Ronnie’s old band. Johnny and Donnie Van Zant have made several albums together if you want to check them out. They stand right up there with their Skynyrd and .38 Special material. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilots-any-consensus-on-what-went-wrong-with-the-leonard-skynard-crash/761236/18 "2016-07-30T04:54:44Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The pilot was very experienced. Surprised he ignored a maintenance issue like this. Well, first up, 68 hours is not very experienced in an aircraft type. Second, experience alone doesn’t really mean anything. Look at all the bad car drivers out there, many of them are probably very experienced but it doesn’t make them good, it just means they’ve had lots of practice at being bad or barely adequate and lots of confirmation that barely adequate is good enough. There are basically only three ways you can run out of fuel unexpectedly. [ol] [li]You didn’t know how much fuel you had to begin with.[/li][li]You have a fuel leak.[/li][li]You are using more fuel than expected.[/li][/ol] A pilot with a reasonable sense of self preservation will have procedures that ensure all three of the above issues are dealt with before they become a problem. In some countries these procedures are enshrined in law and are also part of the company operating manuals. Presumably these pilots either didn’t have an adequate set of procedures to follow regarding fuel management or they chose not to use them. Either way they failed to monitor how much fuel they had and it caught them out. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilots-any-consensus-on-what-went-wrong-with-the-leonard-skynard-crash/761236/19 "2016-07-30T23:27:56Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > How could experienced pilots screw up so badly in a proven and reliable passenger plane? Convair CV-240 are still used some places today. One thought. If they had flown the same route eastbound with X amount of fuel, perhaps they assumed the same amount of fuel would be enough to fly the westbound route. Wind however will make westbound trips longer in most cases. I am a pilot, but only fly small, single-engine planes. It seems like a major screw-up especially on such a large plane. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2016, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilots-any-consensus-on-what-went-wrong-with-the-leonard-skynard-crash/761236/20 "2016-07-31T06:40:26Z")
Having flown entrainment types are around some, they can be rather demanding and make rapid changes in what they want to do when and really lay on the pressure to ‘hurry up.’ I wonder how they were in that regard and what was the experience and relationship of the pilots to the passengers who were calling the shots paying the money? I am also confused about that right engine. Was just on this leg, this flight or for several flights that they were having to flow more fuel to it? That would have me watching fuel more than normal for me. That is assuming I would agree to depart with an engine that was acting like that. Well, actually I did once but that was a reposition of an a Grand Commander that was being held in a foreign country and departure was a lucky fluke so I took the window I had but anywho… Did they know exactly what was wrong with the engine or were just guessing they could get away with it? A lot of unknowns here I think. Also the lack of time in type, was the 68 hours in that airplane or just that type? Did they know that actual airplane or? Had they been flying those types but not that particular one? > [@](#): > > Pilot Certificate #1804920, dated September 12, 1977 with type ratings in the DC-3, Convair 240, 340, and 440 aircraft. He had accrued a total of 6,801 flight hours, 68 of which were in the Convair aircraft. Is the 240, 340 & 440 all on the same type rating, if you can fly one of them you can fly all of them? I do not know what the regs were on those aircraft back at that time. Nor what major or minor differences there might have been. Dead silence in multi-engine aircraft that totally surprise the pilots indicates to me that they did not know it was going to happen as no previous actions that would indicate that they knew they were dangerously low of fuel were noted. Bad or inoperative fuel gauges? I also come down on the ‘mistakes were made’ side of the cause. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pilots-any-consensus-on-what-went-wrong-with-the-leonard-skynard-crash/761236.md?page=2)