# Pin Ball Machine = Gambling ? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 7, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-ball-machine-gambling/709257 "2015-01-07T20:10:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Carryon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Carryon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carryon)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-ball-machine-gambling/709257/1 "2015-01-07T20:10:32Z")
I was watching All In The Family and Edith was upset because Archie forged her name to get a mortgage, to buy a bar. At the very end of the episode, Edith comes down to the bar and explains to Archie when he forged her name to buy the bar, he effectively made her half partner in the bar. So she starts in with proposed changes like changing the decor, fixing the ladies room and at the end she says “And we have to get rid of the pinball machine because that’s gambling.” Is it? How so? I mean people could bet on it, but they could also bet on pretty much anything in a bar. It would be like getting rid of a TV because people watch sports and bet on it. Or is that part of the joke? ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-ball-machine-gambling/709257/2 "2015-01-07T20:16:18Z")
Of course it’s a joke–a reflection of her naiveté. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-ball-machine-gambling/709257/3 "2015-01-07T20:24:23Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Of course it’s a joke–a reflection of her naiveté. Not quite true. Edith was most likely remembering the 1940s crackdown on pinball machines as gambling devices: > [@](#): > > The death blow came on January 21, 1942, when–after the New York cops decided it was too much trouble to make the distinction between bingos and pinballs–Bronx magistrate Ambrose J. Haddock, ruled that “all pinball machines are illegal even if they reward the player with nothing more substantial than amusement.” In subsequent raids, 3,252 machines were confiscated and destroyed and their metal parts (including 3,000 pounds of balls) given to the war effort. Other cities followed New York’s example. See [this article](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/279/did-they-used-to-make-flipperless-pinball-machines) for the story. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-ball-machine-gambling/709257/4 "2015-01-07T20:24:53Z")
Yep, gambling. > [@](#): > > Pinball was banned beginning in the early 1940s until 1976 in New York City.[17] New York mayor Fiorello La Guardia was responsible for the ban, believing that it robbed school children of their hard earned nickels and dimes.[17][18] La Guardia spearheaded major raids throughout the city, collecting thousands of machines. The mayor participated with police in destroying machines with sledgehammers before dumping the remnants into the city’s rivers.[18] > **[Pinball](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinball#Pinball_and_gambling)** > > Pinball games are a family of games in which a ball is propelled into a specially designed table where it bounces off various obstacles, scoring points either en route or when it comes to rest. Historically the board was studded with nails called 'pins' and had hollows or pockets which scored points if the ball came to rest in them. Today, pinball is most commonly an arcade game in which the ball is fired into a specially designed cabinet known as a pinball machine, hitting various lights, bumper... ---
**Author:** ![Carryon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Carryon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carryon)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-ball-machine-gambling/709257/5 "2015-01-07T20:28:57Z")
Well that’s interesting. I never knew about that, thanks for the info. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-ball-machine-gambling/709257/6 "2015-01-07T20:32:40Z")
There’s actaully a city out west–Compton?–that only legalized pinball machines w/in the last few years. FWIW, early pinball machines had more of a gambling element than you might imagine–flippers didn’t come along until fairly well into the development of the game, leaving less opportunity for skill. Plus, you could actually cash out your replays for cash. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-ball-machine-gambling/709257/7 "2015-01-07T20:46:14Z")
Pinball was illegal in New York City well into the 1970s. It famously took a noted pinball champion playing in the City Council chamber to convince lawmakers that it was in fact a game of skill. ETA: I’m not sure when that AITF episode takes place, but pinball may have actually still been illegal at that time. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-ball-machine-gambling/709257/8 "2015-01-07T20:50:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not quite true. Edith was most likely remembering the 1940s crackdown on pinball machines as gambling devices Still, it’s a joke on her being 30+ years behind the times, and even \*that \*being the result of a broad brush approach in the first place. It’d be roughly equivalent to someone today not watching the Simpsons because Dan Quayle said Bart was disrespectful. [The episode was from 1977](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0509796/). Pinball machines were legal in NYC. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-ball-machine-gambling/709257/9 "2015-01-07T20:50:07Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > There’s actaully a city out west–Compton?–that only legalized pinball machines w/in the last few years. FWIW, early pinball machines had more of a gambling element than you might imagine–flippers didn’t come along until fairly well into the development of the game, leaving less opportunity for skill. Plus, you could actually cash out your replays for cash. You might be thinking about Oakland. [Link](http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_eye/2014/10/08/_99_percent_invisible_roman_mars_the_unexpectedly_seedy_past_of_the_pinball.html). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-ball-machine-gambling/709257/10 "2015-01-07T21:40:25Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Still, it’s a joke on her being 30+ years behind the times, and even \*that \*being the result of a broad brush approach in the first place. > > It’d be roughly equivalent to someone today not watching the Simpsons because Dan Quayle said Bart was disrespectful. > > [The episode was from 1977](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0509796/). Pinball machines were legal in NYC. No. [Cite.](http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/for-amusement-only/) She was, at most, about a year out of date. > [@](#): > > Nearly 40 years after the introduction of the flipper, In April of 1976, pinball champion Roger Sharpe was called before the New York City Council to prove that pinball was a game of skill. With much dramatic flair, Sharpe demonstrated that he could move the ball with intention, and the city council voted 6-0 to pass the legislation and legalize pinball. Other cities followed New York’s lead, and within a year, pinball was legal again in most places across the country. I don’t know what the shooting schedule for _All in the Family_ was, but the episode aired in October of 1977, and the New York City Council had only legalized pinball in April of 1976. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-ball-machine-gambling/709257/11 "2015-01-07T21:42:35Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Still, it’s a joke on her being 30+ years behind the times, and even \*that \*being the result of a broad brush approach in the first place. Or she could be expressing her fairly conservative morals, believing that regardless of the legality, she didn’t want any gambling going on at someplace she owned. I don’t think it was a joke on her being behind the times as much as it was illustrative of the conflicts that would take place as a result of how she and Archie differed on things. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-ball-machine-gambling/709257/12 "2015-01-07T21:53:30Z")
Is it gambling if there’s no pay-out? Did pinball machines, at that time, spew out a bunch of quarters when you “won?” I know some arcade games, today, print out coupons for successful play, and you can redeem those coupons for prizes. That’s a lot closer to real gambling than just paying a quarter to see how high a number you can get on the score. There isn’t any concrete payout… Was there ever? (Heck, by this definition, those coin-operated TV sets you used to see in bus stations would be “gambling.” You pay 75 cents…and you might see something worth a damn…but most likely, just I Love Lucy re-runs. You lose!) ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-ball-machine-gambling/709257/13 "2015-01-07T22:26:00Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > There isn’t any concrete payout… Was there ever? From the SD column linked to above: > [@](#): > > If you put in the maximum number of coins and won 300 games you’d have to stick around all day to work them off, but in many of the sleazy venues in which bingos were found the proprietor was always glad to “take the free games off” and convert them to cold cash. Three hundred freebies at two bits per (it was less in the early days, of course) would thus net you $75. ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-ball-machine-gambling/709257/14 "2015-01-07T22:29:56Z")
I’ve played many a pinball that you could turn in your free games for cash. Most were illegal but local law ignored it. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-ball-machine-gambling/709257/15 "2015-01-08T00:35:28Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Or she could be expressing her fairly conservative morals, believing that regardless of the legality, she didn’t want any gambling going on at someplace she owned. I don’t think it was a joke on her being behind the times as much as it was illustrative of the conflicts that would take place as a result of how she and Archie differed on things. And just because there were lingering laws against pinball machines doesn’t mean that your average person still perceived them as gambling–which is really the issue here. I haven’t seen this episode, but what I’d like to know is whether the laugh track played after she said it. (That’s usually a good indication of whether something is meant to be a joke. – I certainly would’ve laughed.) I’d also wonder when the last machines which actually “paid out” were being used in NYC. The linked article indicates that by the time the law was changed the machine manufacturers had long stopped making money from pinball, and turned to slot machines. ---
**Author:** ![Carryon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Carryon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carryon)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-ball-machine-gambling/709257/16 "2015-01-08T00:48:34Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > I haven’t seen this episode, but what I’d like to know is whether the laugh track played after she said it. There was laughter but it was more for the totality of the situation. Basically for those who don’t know. Archie wanted to buy the bar, and the only way was to mortgage the house. Edith refused and cited her and Archie’s experience with the Great Depression and the fact they were now secure. Archie forges (or in his words “traces”) her signature. But as mad as Edith is Archie knows he’s won, because Edith won’t have him arrested for fraud. The final joke coming right at the final scene is Edith goes to the bar and just when Archie thinks he “won” and Edith forgives him, Edith announces since she owned half the house and Archie forged her signature, that in effect, makes her half owner of the bar and she intended to be an active partner. So the laugh was not so much directed at the pinball joke but at how Edith turned the situation on Archie. Not only by wanting to get rid of the pinball machine but other things like redecorating the bar and fixing the ladies room and so on. You hear laughter as Edith recites a laundry lists of changes (of which getting rid of the pinball machine is one) to Archie’s exasperated face. My question came as I thought it was odd anyone would consider pinball as a form of gambling. I didn’t know it was. Interesting how times view things differently. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-ball-machine-gambling/709257/17 "2015-01-08T00:51:26Z")
I interpreted Edith’s comment as an impression that a pinball machine in a bar would be used mainly by two people to bet against each other. As for pinballs that pay out, flipperless “bingo” pinballs (where there are 25 holes, and a 5x5 “card” on the back glass; you receive credits for getting 3 or more in a row, and while the machines don’t pay out coins like an old slot machine would, whoever owned the machine would almost always buy back credits) are still around if you know where to look, although in some states, like California, they are quite illegal, and law enforcement agencies have been known to confiscate and then destroy them when discovered. > [@friedo](#): > > Pinball was illegal in New York City well into the 1970s. It famously took a noted pinball champion playing in the City Council chamber to convince lawmakers that it was in fact a game of skill. There used to be an arcade in Manhattan - it closed sometime between 1995 and 1997 (there’s an episode of NewsRadio that shows the outside of it) - that had pinball machines in it, but you could not get replays (just extra balls) for points or specials, and the match feature was turned off, since it was random. I assume that replays were, and probably still are, illegal on pinball machines in New York. In fact, I have seen a number of older pinballs that were made in “pairs” (examples: Doodle Bug / Love Bug; Miss-O / Cue-T) that were identical except that one gave out replays while the other gave out extra balls, for use in jurisdictions where replays were considered gambling. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-ball-machine-gambling/709257/18 "2015-01-08T04:10:42Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > The linked article indicates that by the time the law was changed the machine manufacturers had long stopped making money from pinball, and turned to slot machines. Video games eventually won out in popularity over pinballs, but like any good business, the pinball manufacturers changed. Bally had made slot machines for some time, and kept at it; while Williams changed its name to WMS, and went into slot production. Both are still in business, and you can find their slot machines in casinos today. Gottlieb didn’t fare so well. After a series of purchases and name changes, the company ceased its pinball business in 1996. The Wikipedia page for “Gottlieb” gives a good overview of how the company declined. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-ball-machine-gambling/709257/19 "2015-01-08T15:07:40Z")
> [@Carryon](#): > > There was laughter but it was more for the totality of the situation. Basically for those who don’t know. Archie wanted to buy the bar, and the only way was to mortgage the house. Edith refused and cited her and Archie’s experience with the Great Depression and the fact they were now secure. > > Archie forges (or in his words “traces”) her signature. But as mad as Edith is Archie knows he’s won, because Edith won’t have him arrested for fraud. > > The final joke coming right at the final scene is Edith goes to the bar and just when Archie thinks he “won” and Edith forgives him, Edith announces since she owned half the house and Archie forged her signature, that in effect, makes her half owner of the bar and she intended to be an active partner. > > So the laugh was not so much directed at the pinball joke but at how Edith turned the situation on Archie. Not only by wanting to get rid of the pinball machine but other things like redecorating the bar and fixing the ladies room and so on. > > You hear laughter as Edith recites a laundry lists of changes (of which getting rid of the pinball machine is one) to Archie’s exasperated face. > > My question came as I thought it was odd anyone would consider pinball as a form of gambling. I didn’t know it was. Interesting how times view things differently. That’s pretty much how I imaged it. The joke is that here is someone unfamiliar with bar culture–someone who probably has never even been in a bar-- now in a position to dictate how Archie’s project is going to play out, with the particular irony that he brought it upon himself by his own duplicitous action. Edith isn’t worried that the vice squad is going to come in and close the place down; she’s worried that men are going to come in on Friday evening and blow a week’s wages on the pinball machine–something which seems very unlikely in a NYC corner bar in the mid 70s, from what I gather. The technicalities of the law aren’t really relevant to the underlying (and humorous) tension of the cultural discourse going on in the narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-ball-machine-gambling/709257/20 "2015-01-09T06:42:39Z")
Depending on the jurisdiction (it could be city or country) free games, extra balls, or matching bonuses could make playing a pinball game “gambling”. Meh. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-ball-machine-gambling/709257.md?page=2)