# Pin the ad on the hominem **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 29, 2004, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792 "2004-06-29T23:58:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/181 "2004-07-02T19:27:27Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > If you don’t have a dazed look on your face after hearing that a group of terrorists just hijacked a commercial jet and flew it into a building, you’re probably not human. I had a dazed look when I heard the first plane hit the WTC. By the time the **second** plane hit, I was ready to find out who was attacking us and why. If you don’t have a dazed look on your face after hearing that a group of terrorists just hijacked a **second** commercial jet and flew it into a building, you’re not George W. Bush. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/182 "2004-07-02T19:30:16Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > **“See Dick run. Run, Dick, run!” \*\* _[whispered] “Mr. President, America is under attack.”_** “See Spot run. Run, Spot, run\*\*!” \*Whaaa? Under attack? Shit. Fuck. I better I better get on the horn, see if \* > > [snip] > > \*wait, I don’t even know what’s going on yet. I should at least get to a briefing, something, then somebody’ll \* \*\*“Get the ball, Dick, get the ball from Spot!” \*\* \*sombody’ll tell me what to do. \* \*\*“Oh no! Dick dropped the ball! See Dick drop the ball!” \*\* Bravo! And **Lib** , What the… “Michael Moore could be waiting there with a gun he got from his bank”??? Totally aside from what **Otto** pointed out, what’s this “got from his bank” shit? I mean, are banks giving out Uzis instead of toasters these days? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/183 "2004-07-02T19:33:42Z")
From the people who think Bush acted correctly, I would like to know what they think of the example I gave above > [@](#): > > If a person came up to a kindergarten teacher in class and whispered “Mary, your child has just been kidnapped”. Do you think it is a sane reaction to continue reading a book to the kids for 9 minutes, just to project calm and keep them from crying? > > Even if the teacher could not provide any assistance in the kidnapping case, do you think it is still normal to continue sitting there and reading? Or should the teacher calmly ask another teacher to stay in the class with the kids while she leaves and tries to see what she can do? ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/184 "2004-07-02T19:38:31Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > And **Lib** , What the… “Michael Moore could be waiting there with a gun he got from his bank”??? Totally aside from what **Otto** pointed out, what’s this “got from his bank” shit? I mean, are banks giving out Uzis instead of toasters these days? 😕 I think this was a reference to “Bowling for Columbine” where Moore showed a bank that gave a gun as a gift to anyone who opened an account there. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/185 "2004-07-02T19:45:19Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Bravo! > > And **Lib** , What the… “Michael Moore could be waiting there with a gun he got from his bank”??? Totally aside from what **Otto** pointed out, what’s this “got from his bank” shit? I mean, are banks giving out Uzis instead of toasters these days? 😕 _Bowling for Columbine_ had a scene with just this. This scene’s merits were gnawed to death somewhere in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=257912) thread. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/186 "2004-07-02T19:46:29Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > And **Lib** , What the… “Michael Moore could be waiting there with a gun he got from his bank”??? Totally aside from what **Otto** pointed out, what’s this “got from his bank” shit? I mean, are banks giving out Uzis instead of toasters these days? 😕 [http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/bank.htm](http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/bank.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/187 "2004-07-02T19:56:20Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > _Bowling for Columbine_ had a scene with just this. This scene’s merits were gnawed to death somewhere in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=257912) thread. Sorry, it was not that thread. I’ll try to find the right one later - no time right now. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/188 "2004-07-02T19:58:15Z")
Well! Just goes to show you it’s been way too long since I opened a new bank account, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/189 "2004-07-02T20:46:58Z")
OK, one last time > [@](#): > > If a person came up to a kindergarten teacher in class and whispered “Mary, your child has just been kidnapped”. Do you think it is a sane reaction to continue reading a book to the kids for 9 minutes, just to project calm and keep them from crying? > > Even if the teacher could not provide any assistance in the kidnapping case, do you think it is still normal to continue sitting there and reading? Or should the teacher calmly ask another teacher to stay in the class with the kids while she leaves and tries to see what she can do? If it is insane/bizarre for the teacher in the above example to stay and read the story for 9 minutes, why is it not equally insane/bizarre for Bush to stay? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/190 "2004-07-02T20:53:09Z")
Polerius, if you’ll notice, the nearly perfectly consistent approach of the irrational Moore bashers is to focus entirely on what he has NOT said, or on how he chooses to present what he does say. They’ve so far been unable to address (rationally) the actual substance of what’s in the film. So your expectations are unrealistic. You’ll just get someone like Libertarian who will swear up an down that he’d find it perfectly plausible human behavior for your exampled teacher to blink stupidly at her classroom for 9 minutes; that in fact that would be the only reasonable thing any person would be expected to do. Oh except _Demonicus hilarious rodhamii._ ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/191 "2004-07-02T20:55:33Z")
Polerius I think it’s an improper analogy. Bush is the president of all citizens including the children in the room; the mother has one child. Bush has a multi-million dollar security team with authority over his immediate comings and goings; the mother does not. Bush’s information is not complete; the mother is told exactly what happened. Now, if you wish to go back and pick up some of my questions to you, feel free. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/192 "2004-07-02T20:59:05Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > OK, one last time > > If it is insane/bizarre for the teacher in the above example to stay and read the story for 9 minutes, why is it not equally insane/bizarre for Bush to stay? :: listening intently for an answer :: [crickets chirping] Perhaps, **Polerius** , the bucolic silence on this thrice-posed question results from a lack of any defensible rejoinder? On preview: Damn, **lissener** , but you’re really on today! ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/193 "2004-07-02T21:04:21Z")
Lordy, ETF. I think you could use a nap. Polerius, I’ll check back tomorrow for your responses to my questions. By now, they may be back a few pages. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/194 "2004-07-02T21:07:40Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Polerius > > I think it’s an improper analogy. Bush is the president of all citizens including the children in the room; the mother has one child. Bush has a multi-million dollar security team with authority over his immediate comings and goings; the mother does not. Bush’s information is not complete; the mother is told exactly what happened. Now, if you wish to go back and pick up some of my questions to you, feel free. Where does **Polerius** say that the putative schoolteacher mother has been told “exactly what happened”? The posited message was: “Mary, your child has just been kidnapped”. No more. There’s a LOT more such a mother would need to know, and want to know immediately. I would expect the president to want to know a LOT more than “Mr. President, a second plane has been flown into the WTC” and to want to know that NOW, and determine what aspects of the multi-million-dollar government apparatus under his direction to activate. As “the president of all citizens including the children in the room”, that’s his job. **Lib** , judging by what I’ve read of your posts lately, you need a hell of a lot more than a nap. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/195 "2004-07-02T21:08:24Z")
It was [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=261449) thread in which the guns at the bank scene was discussed. You’ll find a slightly more balanced presentation there than in the website **Liberal** was so kind as to offer, though I believe that site was cited by the anti-Moore arguers. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/196 "2004-07-02T21:08:37Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > . . . Bush is the president of all citizens including the children in the room . . . . Bravo, Libertarian, BRAVO! Please, don’t ever change. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/197 "2004-07-02T21:10:03Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I think it’s an improper analogy. Bush is the president of all citizens including the children in the room;the mother has one child. I don’t think this is relevant, but OK, fine, assume the teacher was reading a book to 4 of her kids when this happened, and there were some aunts around who could have continued to read to the kids if the teacher left. Does that change what she should have done? > [@](#): > > Bush has a multi-million dollar security team with authority over his immediate comings and goings; the mother does not. I don’t think this is relevant. No matter how many “handlers” you have, it should be an instinctive desire to get up and find out what the hell is going on and to see if you can be of any help. > [@](#): > > Bush’s information is not complete; the mother is told exactly what happened. The mother has \*definitely not \* been told exactly what happened. Who kidnapped my child? Why? What do they want me to do? … Similar to questions Bush might have had: Who attacked the US? Why? What do they want from us? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2004, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/198 "2004-07-02T21:21:39Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > It was [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=261449) thread in which the guns at the bank scene was discussed. You’ll find a slightly more balanced presentation there than in the website **Liberal** was so kind as to offer, though I believe that site was cited by the anti-Moore arguers. Thanks! I must admit, checking **Lib’s** link and reading the bit about “killer toasters” was good for a laugh, though not, I suspect, in the way the author intended it. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2004, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/199 "2004-07-03T02:45:13Z")
I was thinking about this thread at the gym and I got to wondering, does anyone know _ **exactly** _ what Bush was told by that aide? Since I don’t know the exact words, allow me to play devil’s advocate for a moment. Let’s suppose the aide came in and said something to the effect of, “Mr. President, two commercial airplanes have just crashed into the World Trade Center towers. We’ll have Air Force One ready in 10 minutes.” Would there be anything wrong with his staying in the classroom for another 9 minutes? If someone can show me (from a reputable source) what was said, then I’ll probably have to retract that. But my guess is that nobody except GWB and that aide know exactly what was said. ---
**Author:** ![KSO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@KSO](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KSO)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2004, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/200 "2004-07-03T03:09:40Z")
Andy Card said “A second plane has hit the second tower. America is under attack.” [Cite from CBS News](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/11/60II/main521718.shtml) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792.md?page=11)