# Pin the ad on the hominem **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 29, 2004, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792 "2004-06-29T23:58:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/101 "2004-06-30T22:33:17Z")
How many pints do I owe you now, Unc? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/102 "2004-06-30T22:33:36Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > . . . You guys are assholes. Ooooooooooo! so close, and then you blew it. Mostly a pretty reasonable post . . . little strident, OK, but still, respectable. But then you couldn’t resist reminding us all what reactionary bastard you are. Meanwhile, can someone determine how many tangled hijacks this thread has spawned? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/103 "2004-06-30T22:38:18Z")
Calling someone an asshole = reactionary? And to think I let my Birch membership lapse. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/104 "2004-06-30T22:58:58Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Meanwhile, can someone determine how many tangled hijacks this thread has spawned? Oh, what a tangled hijack we weave When first we spawn a ravelled sleeve Of thread amok in byways odd Where **lissener** hears the word of **GaWd**! Where **Liberal** thoughts by **duffer** praised Leave **This Year’s Model** sore amazed At how such thread to depths unknown **Knowed Out** can plunge to a **dropzone** Of Pitiful drivel, off the track Of adding hominemalice back To what the OP meant to show. Now **UncleBeer** and **andros** throw Another down the hatch, while **Lord Ashtar** has wandered off, too bored With foolish hijacks to remain While **jarbabyj** offense explains Though **Gamera** is **Candid** – “I shall use The word as I see fit.” **elu- cidator** does a drive-by post While **Lib** and **lis** their animos- ity lay by a moment while They join the “ **ETF** , shut up!” pile. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/105 "2004-06-30T23:14:11Z")
**ETF** , have I mentioned how incredibly hot you are? ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/106 "2004-06-30T23:22:49Z")
To get back to the thread: I do think **Liberal** has a valid point. If some people think talk radio (Rush et al) and Faux news indulge in rabble-rousing, propaganda, demagoguery, partisan vilification etc (all of which I personally agree with), then one must cast the same critical eye on Moore’s work. To that extent, yes, Moore has a viewpoint which he is trying to get across and it is a little naive to focus merely on the facts he presents. It is equally important to focus on the facts he leaves out, the way he presents the facts, the name-calling he indulges in etc. This is where it gets tricky. How do you know if someone is dishonestly spinning the truth as opposed to arguing his viewpoint? What is fair and acceptable and what is not? This is why I think it is essential for **Liberal** and others to see the film instead of imagining it. We all need to see the film before we make that crucial judgement. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/107 "2004-06-30T23:27:18Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > This strikes me as a cop out. Moore is getting the price of admission as a result of you attending the movie. The fact that TYM is paying for it is irrelevant. If you are so principled as to deny Moore profit from your actions, you have failed. Cognitive dissonace is a bitch, idnit? No, it isn’t. Moore isn’t getting any of my money. In the other thread I said that I would not give Moore a cent of my money, **TYM** said something else that made me say that I would go if he paid for the ticket, not at all expecting that to happen. He surprised me and said that he would, now I have no choice. He has trapped me with my own words. It was a gift freely given, and I will honor that gift by attempting to be objective about the movie, if that’s possible (and it will prove to be a rather difficult challenge, admittedly). It’s not a matter of being cheap, either. If you hate roller coasters and your friend offers to pay your way into the amusement park just so you can go with him, are you being cheap? Nope. I will not pay a red cent to see the movie. If **TYM** thinks that the movie is a good buy and having me see it is a good investment, then that’s really up to him, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2004, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/108 "2004-06-30T23:29:20Z")
> [@litost](#): > > This is where it gets tricky. How do you know if someone is dishonestly spinning the truth as opposed to arguing his viewpoint? Usually, if I disagree with him it’s the former. If I agree, it’s the latter. And for a change of pace, I’m being perfectly serious. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/109 "2004-07-01T01:08:31Z")
And I bet when you said, Airman, that Moore was not getting a cent of your money, you meant that completely literally? And that you were happy for money to go to Moore as a result of you going to the movie, as long as it wasn’t actually yours? Right. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/110 "2004-07-01T01:09:06Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > If you hate roller coasters and your friend offers to pay your way into the amusement park just so you can go with him, are you being cheap? If you hate roller coasters as a matter of principle, the matter of who pays your admission is irrelevant. If you ride the coaster, you have violated your principles. Now, if you want to take your logic to the extreme, you could go with TYM, he buys the ticket, and you give him a gift in the amount that is, only by coincidence, the same as the admission price. By your logic, you haven’t violated your principles (“I would not give Moore a cent of my money”); you have given the money to TYM. If your logic holds, then so does mine. You have reduced your principles to the definition of what “is” is. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/111 "2004-07-01T02:53:51Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > And I bet when you said, Airman, that Moore was not getting a cent of your money, you meant that completely literally? Yes, I meant it completely literally. I was not planning on going to see the movie at all. Period. > [@](#): > > And that you were happy for money to go to Moore as a result of you going to the movie, as long as it wasn’t actually yours? > > Right. Did I say I was happy? I never asked for it.[Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5007069#post5007069) is the post in question. Like I ever expected **TYM** to call me on that. Like if I asked for money people would fall over themselves giving it to me. **TYM** had a point to make, and he made it. He locked me into watching something that I loathe, presumably in the hopes that I’ll learn something from it. To anyone that has read my other stuff on Moore, I had said over and over that I would never subsidize Moore by spending my money on his crap. So at that point is was either take him up on it or make excuses, and then be attacked for making those excuses. I certainly didn’t beg, con, or goad anyone into anything, so quit trying to make me look like I did. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/112 "2004-07-01T04:02:41Z")
Still, Airman, while I can be as illogical as anybody and see the logic in the dumbest stuff, you’re stretching logic past the breaking point with this self-delusion of yours. Yeah, it’s not YOUR money so the barest shreds of your principles in re Moore remain but beyond that you have lost me. It reminds me of Clinton’s claims that a blowjob is not technically the sex act. You are _technically_ not putting money in Moore’s pocket, at least with your own hands, but the money is still going there. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/113 "2004-07-01T07:08:38Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t agree with copyright laws and I don’t have a problem with people downloading the movie and sharing it […] as long as they’re not trying to make a profit off my labour. –[Michael Moore](http://www.boycott-riaa.com/article/9783) Not that anyone _here_ would suggest that you watch the film without paying for it, of course. That would be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Sisyphus\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sisyphus\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sisyphus_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/114 "2004-07-01T07:50:36Z")
The folly of indulging in debate over lightweight propaganda, either for or against the current administration in the US, leaves me excessively depressed when the totality of crimes against humanity inflicted by the US is considered. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/115 "2004-07-01T08:02:47Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Now, if you want to take your logic to the extreme, you could go with TYM, he buys the ticket, and you give him a gift in the amount that is, only by coincidence, the same as the admission price. By your logic, you haven’t violated your principles (“I would not give Moore a cent of my money”); you have given the money to TYM. **If your logic holds, then so does mine**. This seems to be the same as saying my tax rebate was used to pay for my SDMB subscription. Never caught the serial numbers of the bills, but maybe they were from you? If **TYM** wants to treat **Airman** to a movie, great. I can only hope at some point someone invites me to a show. ( I want popcorn!) Now a question. **TYM** , you’re in CO from what I remember. **Airman** is in PA. How is this working out? Or am I behind on recent moves? Also **Airman** , will Robin be joining you on this excursion? Or is she set on seeing it without you cluttering her mind with facts? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/116 "2004-07-01T08:05:30Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > Not that anyone _here_ would suggest that you watch the film without paying for it, of course. That would be wrong. Was that a direct quote? If so I have full rights to download it and judge for myself. Any links for it? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/117 "2004-07-01T08:18:41Z")
Don’t wanna put money in Moores pocket, download the hacked version for free. I just bought a Kiss DP-1500 divx player, so I’m downloading the divx version from Kazaa. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/118 "2004-07-01T09:48:09Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Was that a direct quote? If so I have full rights to download it and judge for myself. Any links for it? Actually, you don’t. Moore may by having made the statement given you permission to download the film (and since it wasn’t addressed specifically to you it might not apply to you anyway, I’ll leave that to someone who knows more on the subject) but the other people who hold a stake in the movie and its profits haven’t, and Moore can’t waive their contract rights. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/119 "2004-07-01T10:37:13Z")
> [@Litost](#): > > This is why I think it is essential for Liberal and others to see the film instead of imagining it. We all need to see the film before we make that crucial judgement. A fair point, and I agree. But the problem, you see, is that I have no interest in making any crucial judgment of the film. I don’t care about the film. I don’t care what it says. And I don’t care what Michael Moore wants to say to me about such things. All this crap about the Bin Ladens, the Saudis, Bush’s money, the disgruntled soldiers tricked into saying things, real erections versus staged erections, and so forth — all this stuff is what my great friend Phil Dennison used to call “piddly shit”. Jesus called it “gnats”. Moore and others are straining gnats and swallowing camels. Now, as much as I despise Moore generally, were he to make a film entirely about Bush’s tyranny, his mugging of the populace to pay for his bloated government, his trampling of our civil liberties through his fascist Attorney General, and his abuse of power for the purpose of political expedience, then I would be the first in line, and I would buy tickets for ten of my friends. These are the camels that are being ignored for the sake of petty turds of gossip. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2004, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792/120 "2004-07-01T10:42:13Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > real erections versus staged erections I’d pay to see that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pin-the-ad-on-the-hominem/252792.md?page=7)