Pin the ad on the hominem

[Cheesesteak]

@This Year's Model

If I were the President of the United States, I would not have to wait. I would have the ability to make the news come to me. Say “bye” to the kids, and go get started.

The dude ain’t a fucking magician, he can’t “make” the news come to him. I hate to break it to you, but the news was already coming to him as fast as it was ever going to. The people on his staff were saying to themselves “let’s get all the information we can to the president on this event.” You think they were picking their noses waiting for orders from the Prez?

Fuck, a major event is coming down and my boss walks in saying “Let’s find out what’s going on.” I’m going to say "WTF do you think we’ve been doing the last 15 minutes? :dubious: " His staffers aren’t morons, and they’re right there with the info, they know when it becomes a “cancel the event” sort of problem, and that took all of 9 minutes :eek:

[Polerius]

@Liberal

I for one do not want my President reacting to world events on the assessment of … a cousin from Europe.

Very mature discourse.

[Polerius]

@Liberal

Incidentally, Polerius, here is the perspective of someone who was there, someone who did not vote for Bush: http://www.naplesnews.com/npdn/florida/article/0,2071,NPDN_14910_2985640,00.html

I don’t know if I should continue this discussion, since you twist my words and imply that I menat that the president should rely on “a cousin from Europe”, but I thought I’d address the link you provided

In it the person mentions:

“What would it have served if he had jumped out of his chair and ran out of the room?”

Who the hell said that “he should have jumped out of his chair and ran out”?

Also, regarding what presidential historian Fred Greenstein said “It certainly wouldn’t present the right message if he turned white, rushed out, and kids started crying”

Who the hell said that he should have “turned white, and rushed out”?

For the 100th time: He should have calmly excused himself and left the room.

Also, who cares if some kids would start crying? Also, the person in the link you provided said “Bush’s presence had a calming effect and ‘helped us get through a very difficult day.’”

Who gives a damn if Bush helped a few people feel calm and get through a difficult day, if there was a national disaster going on?

If a person came up to a kindergarten teacher in class and whispered “Mary, your child has just been kidnapped”. Do you think it is a sane reaction to continue reading a book to the kids for 9 minutes, just to project calm and keep them from crying?

Even if the teacher could not provide any assistance in the kidnapping case, do you think it is still normal to continue sitting there and reading? Or should the teacher calmly ask another teacher to stay in the class with the kids while she leaves and tries to see what she can do?

Finally, you try to bring in the opinions of a “presidential historian” and of someone who “did not vote for Bush”. Not voting for Bush and being a presidential historian do not exempt you from being an idiot. This is a simple case of logic. You don’t have to argue using the thoughts of other people.

[Polerius]

@Polerius

For the 100th time: He should have calmly excused himself and left the room.

One final note. The above is what he *should * have done. But it maybe excusable, given the crushing weight of the moment, that he failed to do so. Maybe 99% of all people would have reacted the same way out of sheer shock, so maybe we can excuse that.

But to imply that it was a well-thought-out strategy to “project calm” and keep the kids from crying it quite ludicrous.

[Liberal]

Naturally, you catch every hint in responses that do not exactly state your position just exactly the way you intend it. But if you continually make a big deal out of being paraphrased, then you should hold yourself to your own standard. No one has said “it was a well-thought-out strategy”. It impresses me as simply the natural reaction of a man whose character is not given to hysteria. I think it was a quick assessment. Incidentally, if you care to address how his reaction was in any way inferior to the reactions of Roosevelt, Kennedy, and Johnson, feel free.

[Liberal]

Also, if you care to address the other points I made, such as the need for security to have a few minutes to arrange an unscheduled exit, feel free as well.

[Otto]

@Liberal

As I said, I did see the portion I wrote about. It was a preview clip that Moore brought to his Jon Stewart interview.

You saw a clip. I saw the film. The clip may not have been the same as what was in the film. I was speaking of what was presented in the film.

@Liberal

Also, if you care to address the other points I made, such as the need for security to have a few minutes to arrange an unscheduled exit, feel free as well.

How much time would it have taken for security, which had presumably already thoroughly secured the school, to arrange for Bush to put down the copy of “The Fuzzy Duck” or whatever that he picked up after being told about the attack and step out into the hallway?

[Shodan]

@Otto

How much time would it have taken for security, which had presumably already thoroughly secured the school, to arrange for Bush to put down the copy of “The Fuzzy Duck” or whatever that he picked up after being told about the attack and step out into the hallway?

Apparently, about nine minutes.

During which time his staff continued to collect the information needed to make an informed decision on how to react. And perhaps you could share what you expect Bush to do in the hallway that he can’t do in the classroom?

This is so idiotic. If Bush instantly left the room, you would be flaming him for panicking and abandoning the children. If he projects calm while his staff gets a handle on the largest terrorist attack in US history, you flame him for not doing something quicker.

We went around and around on this a few whiles ago in a particularly silly thread in Great Debates.

Regards,
Shodan

[Liberal]

@Otto

You saw a clip. I saw the film. The clip may not have been the same as what was in the film. I was speaking of what was presented in the film.

If the clip was not the same as what was in the film, then we have a rare double irony — Moore misrepresenting himself. As you doubtless know, when clips are shown on shows like that, they are provided by the guest. I’m reminded of Charles Barkley’s famous quip when asked about a controversial passage from his autobiography: “I misquoted myself.”

How much time would it have taken for security, which had presumably already thoroughly secured the school, to arrange for Bush to put down the copy of “The Fuzzy Duck” or whatever that he picked up after being told about the attack and step out into the hallway?

You really are clueless, aren’t you. Presidents don’t just step out into hallways or anywhere else. After all, Michael Moore could be waiting there with a gun he got from his bank.

[Equipoise]

Why not sit there for two or three minutes longer, then find an opening to gently interrupt the teacher, perhaps with a small joke, then speak directly to the children, saying something…something…soothing and presidential and how nice it was to be there and thank them all for having him, have fun in school and be nice to your moms, then excusing himself to walk slowly out of the room to go see WHAT THE FUCK WAS GOING ON??

Man, if it were Clinton ignoring a national crisis for that long, I doubt there’d be any conservatives defending him with “what was he supposed to do?” and “he did the right thing” because they’d be too busy saying he should have excused himself and gone quickly to do presidential stuff instead of sitting there with the kids.

[lissener]

“See Dick run. Run, Dick, run!” ** [whispered] “Mr. President, America is under attack.” “See Spot run. Run, Spot, run**!” *Whaaa? Under attack? Shit. Fuck. I better I better get on the horn, see if * **“See Jane run. Run, Jane, run!” ** *see what’s happening. I should probably * **“Jane has a ball. A big red ball.” ** *probably find out if there are any other planes off * **“Throw the ball, Jane!” ** *off course, off radar. See what the status is. Hell, I should probably at least at least * **“Yes, Jane, throw the ball to Spot!” ** look like I’m on top of the situation. Photo op, red phone, The Briefcase. But **“Catch the ball Spot!” ** *but no, wait, these kids, if I quit reading, they’ll freak. But maybe if I pause, and smile, and hand * **“See Spot run for the ball. Run, Spot, run!” ** *and hand the book to their teacher, and you know, act all presidential and shit, say * **“See Spot get the ball.” ** *say, Thanks for having me kids, but I gotta get back to the White House, gotta meeting, Queen of England or something, that won’t freak em out, right? Aw man * **“Good Spot, good dog!” ** *aw man, gotta do something. Gotta get to the bunker, right? Isn’t there a bunker? Gotta * **“Give the ball to Dick, Spot!” ** *gotta make sure we got all our shit together, if this attack, this attack * **“Run to Dick, Spot, give the ball to Dick!” ** *wait, I don’t even know what’s going on yet. I should at least get to a briefing, something, then somebody’ll * **“Get the ball, Dick, get the ball from Spot!” ** *sombody’ll tell me what to do. * **“Oh no! Dick dropped the ball! See Dick drop the ball!” **

[Liberal]

@Equipoise

Man, if it were Clinton ignoring a national crisis for that long, I doubt there’d be any conservatives defending him with “what was he supposed to do?” and “he did the right thing” because they’d be too busy saying he should have excused himself and gone quickly to do presidential stuff instead of sitting there with the kids.

It could have been worse. Bush could have been locked in a closet with the principal, shooting spoojee on her dress. Wouldn’t that take about nine minutes?

[lissener]

@Liberal

It could have been worse. Bush could have been locked in a closet with the principal, shooting spoojee on her dress. Wouldn’t that take about nine minutes?

Thank you, Libertarian, for being who you are.

(quote from a friend, IRL: “When Democrats screw up, there’s a sex scandal. When Republicans screw up, people die.”)

[Liberal]

@lissener

Thank you, Libertarian, for being who you are.

(quote from a friend, IRL: “When Democrats screw up, there’s a sex scandal. When Republicans screw up, people die.”)

You might not have been informed you that Clinton did his just-because-I-can deeds while a war raged in Bosnia. Alternately, you might not give a shit.

[lissener]

@Liberal

You might not have been informed you that Clinton did his just-because-I-can deeds while a war raged in Bosnia. Alternately, you might not give a shit.

Lib, seriously, you’ve become the most dishonest poster here nowadays. You’re like Shodan, only more. Try to convince me that you honestly believe that

A) when talking about reaction times, war raging in Bosnia and New York City under attack are exact parallels
B) when discussing Bush and terrorists, the pants activities of ANY third party is relevant in ANY way other than as a weak debater’s distraction

Please, convince me.

[rjung]

@duffer

And to you, rjung, please answer me this. What is the time window for a President to respond to an unprecedented disaster or act of war?

Three minutes. That’s plenty of time to wait for a good break in the reading, politely interrupt the teacher, say something like “I’m sorry, kids, I have to leave. There’s something presidential I have to take care of,” say a few goodbyes, then leave the room and find out what the hell is going on.

By the way, I find the continuing efforts of the Bush apologist to spin away the Presidential Dazed Glaze to be pathetically amusing. As others have pointed out, if it was Clinton or Gore sitting in that classroom in the middle of the nation’s biggest terrorist attack, y’all would be breaking out the pitchforks and torches inside of a New York second. But since Bush has that little “(R)” next to his name, well, that makes it all peachy-keen.

For those who haven’t seen the video and who haven’t (or won’t) see Fahrenheit 9/11, The Memory Hole has a five-minute clip, starting from when Andrew Card tells Bush the second plane has hit the tower. If you don’t have Quicktime on your computer, you can still follow along with the numerous snapshots, taken at five-second intervals, showing just how clueless Bush continued to be during the entire time.

[Lord_Ashtar]

@Equipoise

Man, if it were Clinton ignoring a national crisis for that long, I doubt there’d be any conservatives defending him with “what was he supposed to do?” and “he did the right thing” because they’d be too busy saying he should have excused himself and gone quickly to do presidential stuff instead of sitting there with the kids.

Right, and how would you have reacted if it had been WJC instead of GWB? Let me see if I can guess your answer:

“Since I’m above all this partisan bullshit, I would have been just as upset with Clinton as I am with Bush.”

How close am I?

[Lord_Ashtar]

@rjung

By the way, I find the continuing efforts of the Bush apologist to spin away the Presidential Dazed Glaze to be pathetically amusing. As others have pointed out, if it was Clinton or Gore sitting in that classroom in the middle of the nation’s biggest terrorist attack, y’all would be breaking out the pitchforks and torches inside of a New York second. But since Bush has that little “(R)” next to his name, well, that makes it all peachy-keen.

If you don’t have a dazed look on your face after hearing that a group of terrorists just hijacked a commercial jet and flew it into a building, you’re probably not human. Just MHO of course.

[elucidator]

Which would be understandable, human, and forgiveable. Who wouldn’t? But the spin of GeeDubya as bold, decisive leader leaping into action is just so much Bushwah. Is that a big, hairy-ass deal? No, but it’s still a load.

Perhaps we should just be glad it wasn’t Photochopped and airbrushed to show GeeDubya pulling on a flight suit and scrambling with his figher squadron.

HAAAWWWK-AAAAA!

[Otto]

@Shodan

During which time his staff continued to collect the information needed to make an informed decision on how to react. And perhaps you could share what you expect Bush to do in the hallway that he can’t do in the classroom?

Um, speak freely? Get the information directly and immediately? Be engaged in the process instead of thumbing through a children’s book?

@Shodan

This is so idiotic. If Bush instantly left the room, you would be flaming him for panicking and abandoning the children.

Fuck you, Kreskin. You’re not a mind reader and your prediction of my reaction is completely wrong. Had Bush, upon being told of the attack, calmly and immediately stood up, said something like, “I’m sorry to cut this short but something’s come up that needs my attention” and walked out to begin immediate conferring with his staff, I would have nothing but praise for his immediate reaction. The only way I would criticize him for immediate action would be if he panicked the children, which had he acteas I suggested would very likely not have happened.

Sitting on his ass with his nose in a book was a piss-poor response and if you had a shred of intellectual honesty about the issue you’d admit it.

@Fucktard

You really are clueless, aren’t you. Presidents don’t just step out into hallways or anywhere else. After all, Michael Moore could be waiting there with a gun he got from his bank.

Wow. You really typed that out? You really put your fingers on a keyboard and typed that and posted it and didn’t immediately fall over dead under the weight of your own stupidity? Do you think the Secret Service didn’t have people posted in that hallway and that they didn’t know exactly who was in that school and where? You’re so completely irrational at this point that it’s not even fun anymore to ridicule you for it. It’s not funny; it’s just sad. Just sad.