# Pink Floyd, Before and After Syd **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 7, 2009, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-floyd-before-and-after-syd/505619 "2009-08-07T11:54:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FluffyBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecb155/32.png) [@FluffyBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FluffyBob)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-floyd-before-and-after-syd/505619/21 "2009-08-07T16:55:52Z")
I think the brilliance of Syd Barrett that is often lauded is more to do with his lyrical abilities and willingness to go outside of musical convention; rather than his listen-ability. I find his lyrics very poetic and quirky, quite playful and funny, contrasted against often haunting musical choices. The offerings of Waters and Gilmore (I cant really distinguish what Wright’s contributions were) are very different; much more accessible for the most part; though Waters screechy angst can be unpleasant. They were very talented and produced some fantastic music. I really enjoy some of Barretts solo stuff; Late Night, Terrapin, and [If it’s in You](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k62ihqr4oUU&feature=related) in particular is amazing. Maybe Barretts genius is hyped, the tragedy of his personal life tends to overpower his actual musical contributions with a lot of 'what if’s. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-floyd-before-and-after-syd/505619/22 "2009-08-07T16:58:18Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Interesting. _Dark Side Of The Moon_ is almost universally accepted as their pinnacle achievement, although I’m partial to the paranoia of _The Wall_, myself. Dark Side is definitely one of my least favorite Floyd works, but I wouldn’t call it ‘weak’, it’s just a bit _commercial_. I am more into their epic songs like Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun, Echoes and other tracks like that. Be Careful With that Axe Eugene is my favorite Pink Floyd song. That being said, I think that Syd’s real contribution to Pink Floyd is his influence on Roger Waters. Isn’t “The Wall” largely about Syd Barret? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-floyd-before-and-after-syd/505619/23 "2009-08-07T17:45:27Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Dark Side is definitely one of my least favorite Floyd works, but I wouldn’t call it ‘weak’, it’s just a bit _commercial_. > > I am more into their epic songs like Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun, Echoes and other tracks like that. Be Careful With that Axe Eugene is my favorite Pink Floyd song. > > That being said, I think that Syd’s real contribution to Pink Floyd is his influence on Roger Waters. Isn’t “The Wall” largely about Syd Barret? I thought it was “Wish You Were Here” that was mostly about Syd. “Shine On You Crazy Diamond”, the title track, etc. Interesting take on DSOTM, too. I never felt that songs like “Breathe” or “Time” were all that commercial (at least, not to me). ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-floyd-before-and-after-syd/505619/24 "2009-08-07T17:49:18Z")
Yeah, WYWH is the tribute to Syd. ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-floyd-before-and-after-syd/505619/25 "2009-08-07T17:54:11Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > I bought **Dark Side** the week is was released. My first thought after listening to it was, “Well, Pink Floyd has sold out and gone commercial.” But it is no where near their best music (both **Meddle** and **Wish You Were Here** are far superior, and **Atom Heart Mother** and **Ummagumma** are also greater albums. **Dark Side** is about the same level as **The Division Bell** , though less musically interesting. It’s sort of “Pink Floyd for Dummies.” ( **The Wall** is marginally better, but still not their best work by any means. Ummagumma \> Dark Side? Dark Side == Division Bell? We clearly are living in parallel universes. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-floyd-before-and-after-syd/505619/26 "2009-08-07T18:08:32Z")
I think that one of the things that distinguishes the era of Floyd albums from Dark Side through The Wall (and even The Final Cut, to a degree) is the continuity of all the records. I realize that they are conceptual in nature (particularly DSOTM and The Wall), but even outside of those the music so seamlessly flows from one song to the next. There’s also very little unevenness (no shitty songs) like in their earlier work (and in their later stuff after, or starting with, The Final Cut). Pink Floyd’s “sweet spot” era has records that quite literally you can just put on and let them play all the way through. No “Skip that song, it sucks” going on. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-floyd-before-and-after-syd/505619/27 "2009-08-07T18:13:10Z")
> [@HoboStew](#): > > Yeah, WYWH is the tribute to Syd. Wish You Were Here is the tribute to Barrett, but I always figured Roger Waters was preoccupied with mental illness as a result of what happened to his former bandmate. He wrote about it over and over. I’m not a Pink Floyd fan, but I’ve heard some of the Syd and post-Syd stuff, and the stuff he wrote… well, it’s better than Incense and Peppermints, but it feels about that dated. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-floyd-before-and-after-syd/505619/28 "2009-08-07T18:16:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not a Pink Floyd fan That’s it, send for the straightjacket and have Marley taken away. Time for some _Clockwork Orange_-style reconditioning for you! ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-floyd-before-and-after-syd/505619/29 "2009-08-07T19:00:47Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > I’m another who thinks “Lucifer Sam” kicks ass. I also like “Matilda Mother”, “Astronomy Domine”, and “Scarecrow”… another favorite of mine is “Flaming”. Astronomy Domine is probably my favourite Barrett-era track but, to be honest, on record it is simply “ok”. The Piper version is a bit too rigid for me. The Ummagumma one is a vast improvement but, compared to bootlegs from the period, is quite cut down. To be honest, up until Dark Side live versions were vastly, vastly different to the recorded versions. Two excellent examples are Cymbaline and Fat Old Sun. On record they were in the 4-5 minute area, but live they could stretch on for a quarter of an hour, just jamming away. For me that is Pink Floyd. Four guys on a stage jamming. Unfortunately there seems to be little of the live Barrett-era available, but there are plenty of pre-Dark Side bootlegs that show a vastly different band to the one that comes across on record. I’m glad to see that I am not the only person that prefers this era. So often in online discussions it seems that way, but here on the Dope we seem to have a much more discerning userbase. I still may be the only person on Earth whose favourite Floyd album is the soundtrack to More though. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-floyd-before-and-after-syd/505619/30 "2009-08-07T19:06:31Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Astronomy Domine is probably my favourite Barrett-era track but, to be honest, on record it is simply “ok”. The Piper version is a bit too rigid for me. The Ummagumma one is a vast improvement but, compared to bootlegs from the period, is quite cut down. > > To be honest, up until Dark Side live versions were vastly, vastly different to the recorded versions. Two excellent examples are Cymbaline and Fat Old Sun. The _other_ thing I’ve always said about Pink Floyd is that we really, really need a legit, full-length concert album of the period when they were doing songs like those, “Atom Heart Mother,” “Green Is the Colour,” and especially the fully jammed-out version of “Embryo.” A DVD of the PBS concert wouldn’t be unwelcome, either. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-floyd-before-and-after-syd/505619/31 "2009-08-07T19:19:32Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Wish You Were Here is the tribute to Barrett, but I always figured Roger Waters was preoccupied with mental illness as a result of what happened to his former bandmate. He wrote about it over and over. He left a long shadow over the band. I agree with you. A lot of PF’s stuff is partly about Syd Barrett, but not entirely. I think part of it was Roger Waters worried that the same could happen to him and he wasn’t even necessarily thinking about Barrett consciously. I love Syd Barrett and like Pink Floyd better with him than without him, but I’ve come to like his solo music better than his PF music. Off of Piper my favorites are probably Astronomy Domine, Lucifer Sam, Flaming. I also really like Pow R. Toc H. but the album version isn’t my favorite. There’s a 40 second performance of it at the beginning of [this video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTfDUyUkVYE&fmt=18) that I think is just brilliant. It helps to watch the video on full screen while you listen. Also, don’t miss [Jugband Blues](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiEd3D8uGR8&fmt=18), the only song from their second album that he was involved in and one of my favorite Syd-era floyd songs. I do think his PF music can be a little aimless for my tastes. I think I prefer his solo stuff for the most part because it leaves out a lot of the jammy parts. A few of his solo songs that I want to link to: [Octopus](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_6PhexCMow)- This and Baby Lemonade are probably his two most accessible solo songs. [Baby Lemonade](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6Pi2VVTr9M) [Golden Hair](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vfvh8nn_JkM)- I love this one. It shows how great he could be with a simple song. The guitar part is very powerful but there’s not a lot to it- he uses a simple melody to a great effect. Something that’s interesting is [David Bowie’s cover of See Emily Play](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaGBXJmKGAU), which I always thought of as David Bowie performing it in the style of Syd’s last PF songs after he had gone off the deep end. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-floyd-before-and-after-syd/505619/32 "2009-08-07T19:20:43Z")
I think Barrett’s “Swan Lee (Silas Lang)” is a pretty pleasant song. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-floyd-before-and-after-syd/505619/33 "2009-08-07T19:22:32Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > . > To be honest, up until Dark Side live versions were vastly, vastly different to the recorded versions…just jamming away. It wasn’t until I started scrounging for bootlegs (ahh, Napster, how I miss thee) that I gained a love for PF’s pre-DSotM music. Simple throw-away singles like _Embryo, Fat Old Sun, Point Me at the Sky, Green is the Colour, Cymbaline_, turned into some truly amazing epic jam pieces. They clearly lived on the strength of their live performances and, up until around Meddle, it seems that the studio was more of a cursory shortened sampler of what was being done live. I was always dissappointed with the _Ummagumma_ live recordings, which picked songs that didn’t gain much from their studio recordings, when there was a ton of grander live jams to choose from. ---
**Author:** ![Wakinyan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wakinyan/32/352_2.png) [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-floyd-before-and-after-syd/505619/34 "2009-08-07T19:34:54Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I have a question. Is there anyone that likes Pink Floyd’s earlier stuff with Syd Barret _more_ than their later stuff without him? > > Honestly, I think a lot of the Barret-inspired music can border on unlistenable. Some of the stuff, like “Careful With That Axe, Eugene”, “One Of These Days…” and other songs definetely foreshadow the type of band the Floyd were turning into. > > But some of Syd’s stuff, like “Vegetable Man”, Scream Thy Last Scream" are just terrible to me. I’m not the greatest Pink Floyd fan, but I’ve probably listened to all their albums (didn’t keep track), and I agree with you. My favourite is – perhaps ironically in this context – **Wish You Were Here** , which in my book is one of the greatest albums ever. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-floyd-before-and-after-syd/505619/35 "2009-08-07T19:36:55Z")
> [@HoboStew](#): > > Ummagumma \> Dark Side? Dark Side == Division Bell? We clearly are living in parallel universes. I agree the Ummagumma is better than Dark Side, but Dark Side is better than the Division Bell. Division Bell would be a good album for a mediocre band. As it was, it was a crappy album for a great one. I do like the song High Hopes though. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-floyd-before-and-after-syd/505619/36 "2009-08-07T20:26:07Z")
Here’s another aspect that may unfairly bias me towards DSOTM-era FLoyd and later: studio production. I love really well-engineered studio albums, particularly for the kind of electronic-laden music the Floyd plays. According to the book _Saucerful Of Secrets_, the Floyd hit the studio to make _DSOTM_ with their first access to a 24-track recording machine. I think this really allowed them to play around a lot and really layer in a lot of the effects they use even more effectively and cleanly than ever before. Not having listened to some of the suggested Syd-era tracks yet, I’m going to say that I likely will have an automatic bias against some of it just based on cruder production. I suppose another issue is that I encountered the Floyd catalogue almost in reverse since I didn’t grow up with them. I bought _The Wall_ when I was nine in 1979 with allowance money and literally burned grooves into the record from listening to it so much. I proceeded to get _Wish You Were Here_ in the 1980’s, along with _Animals_ and _DSOTM_. I had dabbled in stuff like Echoes, some of which I liked, but I never lost the affinity for those four albums above all the other ones. _Momentary Lapse Of Reason_ was the last Pink Floyd recording I purchased and liked, even if it isn’t my favorite. I also saw them in concert in 1987 at the former Capitol Center in Washington DC. My friends and I had just seen Roger Waters on his Radio KAOS tour a couple weeks before that. Waters didn’t sell out even one show, whereas Floyd sold out all four of theirs. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-floyd-before-and-after-syd/505619/37 "2009-08-07T20:28:36Z")
That’s sort of sad, and also a little weird considering Roger Waters was the backbone of Pink Floyd. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-floyd-before-and-after-syd/505619/38 "2009-08-07T20:54:03Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > That’s sort of sad, and also a little weird considering Roger Waters was the backbone of Pink Floyd. You know, I used to really think so too. Waters was “the voice” behind Floyd, and from everything I’ve read, was the ambitious driving force behind the band after Syd was ousted. But I think David Gilmour was equally influential, especially from the musicianship angle. The guy is a really instinctive player, perfect for their music. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-floyd-before-and-after-syd/505619/39 "2009-08-07T21:07:22Z")
> [@Talon\_Karrde](#): > > He left a long shadow over the band. I agree with you. A lot of PF’s stuff is partly about Syd Barrett, but not entirely. I think part of it was Roger Waters worried that the same could happen to him and he wasn’t even necessarily thinking about Barrett consciously. > > I love Syd Barrett and like Pink Floyd better with him than without him, but I’ve come to like his solo music better than his PF music. > Off of Piper my favorites are probably Astronomy Domine, Lucifer Sam, Flaming. > I also really like Pow R. Toc H. but the album version isn’t my favorite. There’s a 40 second performance of it at the beginning of [this video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTfDUyUkVYE&fmt=18) that I think is just brilliant. It helps to watch the video on full screen while you listen. > > Also, don’t miss [Jugband Blues](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiEd3D8uGR8&fmt=18), the only song from their second album that he was involved in and one of my favorite Syd-era floyd songs. > > I do think his PF music can be a little aimless for my tastes. I think I prefer his solo stuff for the most part because it leaves out a lot of the jammy parts. > A few of his solo songs that I want to link to: > [Octopus](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_6PhexCMow)- This and Baby Lemonade are probably his two most accessible solo songs. > [Baby Lemonade](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6Pi2VVTr9M) > [Golden Hair](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vfvh8nn_JkM)- I love this one. It shows how great he could be with a simple song. The guitar part is very powerful but there’s not a lot to it- he uses a simple melody to a great effect. > > Something that’s interesting is [David Bowie’s cover of See Emily Play](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaGBXJmKGAU), which I always thought of as David Bowie performing it in the style of Syd’s last PF songs after he had gone off the deep end. Thanks for taking the time to post those links. I have to say after just listening to a few of them my initial observation is simply this: The Barrett songs sound so _dated_ compared to later Floyd efforts without him, which to me sound _timeless_. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-floyd-before-and-after-syd/505619/40 "2009-08-07T21:09:40Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > As I’m also re-reading the book “Saucerful Of Secrets”, I’m trying to juxtapose all the glowing commentary about what a genius Syd was, etc against actually listening to some of the music, and frankly, I just can’t agree with the book’s conclusion. Other than that Syd took a lot of LSD, of course. I agree with you. I get that he was inspirational in some way, but the band was way better without him. The book was good, but I don’t understand his musical contribution at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-floyd-before-and-after-syd/505619.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-floyd-before-and-after-syd/505619.md?page=3)