# Pink locker rooms and a knee jerk feminist.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-locker-rooms-and-a-knee-jerk-feminist/322982
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [September 23, 2005, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-locker-rooms-and-a-knee-jerk-feminist/322982 "2005-09-23T00:23:34Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2005, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-locker-rooms-and-a-knee-jerk-feminist/322982/21 "2005-09-23T04:06:37Z")
I’m old, **Minty** , so old. Except for a couple people I’m on committees with and a hand full of really old guys (The Screaming Eagle, Dunken Hines, poor old Charlie Davidson, Sandy Boyd) the only person on that roster I know was two years behind me in high school.
Of course Visiting Professor Buzuvis may be looking to establish a reputation and do it quick since her appointment just started on September 9. How better to attract attention than to attack the athletic department of a Big Ten University. That attention might well take the form of a dead carp under her car seat. Already she has made the front page of the newspaper all Polk County relies on, and the local 6:00 o’clock TV news and **The Pit**. Really, it’s pretty spectacular for a wandering academic.
It may well be that women are getting a short shrift over at the Field House but getting her panties all in a bunch over the color scheme in the visitors’ football locker room seem a bizarre way to approach the problem. This is not going to go over big in a state that prides itself on hard-headed realism, pragmatism and horse sense, as **beagledave** ’s OP shows. Of course our friend is sort of a grouch and I doubt if there is much going on in the Athens of the Midwest that he throughly approves of.
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### Author:  [@twin\_infinitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twin_infinitive)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2005, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-locker-rooms-and-a-knee-jerk-feminist/322982/22 "2005-09-23T04:13:56Z")
So is this:
> [@](#):
>
> When Hayden Fry became head football coach at Iowa in the late 70s, one of the first things he did was to have the walls in the visiting teams locker room painted pink. He was a psychology major in college…he claimed that the color scheme could be used to mellow out the opposing team because pink was a passive/soothing color.
A lie?
Was Hayden Fry really just trying to sneak in a gay joke, and his psych major was merely a cover?
Why wouldn’t being “insulted” motivate the other team, rather than mellow them out? Calling players “ladies” is, in fact, a motivating tool, not something to calm them down. They play harder to avoid the moniker, is the idea. Now, that is something I can see people taking offense to… the pink room? Not so much.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2005, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-locker-rooms-and-a-knee-jerk-feminist/322982/23 "2005-09-23T04:23:57Z")
> [@twin infinitive](#):
>
> Was Hayden Fry really just trying to sneak in a gay joke, and his psych major was merely a cover?
I don’t believe his cover story, no.
> [@](#):
>
> Why wouldn’t being “insulted” motivate the other team, rather than mellow them out?
You can argue it might due that. The point is that it’s an attempted psych-out.
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### Author:  [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2005, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-locker-rooms-and-a-knee-jerk-feminist/322982/24 "2005-09-23T04:35:03Z")
If the colour in a college locker room is the last thing feminists (note the use of that label, not “women”) have to get upset about, then we truly have come a long way, baby.
In my opinion, it is a big leap to get from trying to make your opponents more passive in their locker room by making it pink (a colour proven to be mellowing) to being misogynistic. If you try hard enough to get offended, I guess you can find something to be offended about anywhere.
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### Author:  [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2005, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-locker-rooms-and-a-knee-jerk-feminist/322982/25 "2005-09-23T04:53:49Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#):
>
> I’m old, **Minty** , so old.
The word you’re looking for is “venerable.” 😃
> [@](#):
>
> Of course Visiting Professor Buzuvis may be looking to establish a reputation and do it quick since her appointment just started on September 9. How better to attract attention than to attack the athletic department of a Big Ten University. That attention might well take the form of a dead carp under her car seat. Already she has made the front page of the newspaper all Polk County relies on, and the local 6:00 o’clock TV news and **The Pit**. Really, it’s pretty spectacular for a wandering academic.
In my limited (non-law related) academic teaching experience, 'tis far better to shit on the existing paradigm than to shit on the hiring committee. I still know a goodly portion of the names on that list, and I’m not really seeing how this gets any of them behind a permanent position. Enjoy your year’s (low-)paid vacation, Ms. Buzuvis! Perhaps if you had not been such a condescending prat, you might have discovered that the school contains a significant number of very cool peopla and that the local environs are a fairly nifty place to live, so long as the beginning and end of your criteria consists of anything more than geographic proximity to lower Manhattan.
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### Author:  [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2005, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-locker-rooms-and-a-knee-jerk-feminist/322982/26 "2005-09-23T05:23:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> I strongly doubt that’s the point. The point is that telling a football player “you = women and gay men” is an insult to the women and gay men because it says “a comparison to you is an insult.” Elements of a tautology there, I know.
I don’t associate pink with gay men; I associate it with women. Purple, OTOH…
But I’m still unclear on this point. Women aren’t as good as men at football. Full stop. But this is bad because it’s insulting to women? The truth is insulting now?
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2005, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-locker-rooms-and-a-knee-jerk-feminist/322982/27 "2005-09-23T05:27:14Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#):
>
> But I’m still unclear on this point. Women aren’t as good as men at football. Full stop. But this is bad because it’s insulting to women? The truth is insulting now?
I can’t think of a clearer way to say it than I did, or else I would do so. We’re not talking about a casual observation here. It’s delivered in a derogatory manner. “You, like a woman, are weak and bad at football!” It may be true or even obviously true. That doesn’t mean it isn’t intended as an insult.
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### Author:  [@Giant\_Spongess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giant_Spongess)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2005, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-locker-rooms-and-a-knee-jerk-feminist/322982/28 "2005-09-23T05:32:29Z")
> [@SparrowHawk](#):
>
> But haven’t there been serious studies on the effects of color that have shown that [pink does suppress aggression?](http://bacweb.the-bac.edu/~michael.b.williams/baker-miller.html) And that they use it in prisons for that reason? Personally, I think the pink urinals are just darling, but Dr. Schauss (in his Conclusion) says they’ve not been proven necessary to the effect.
I don’t know, lots of pink certainly makes _me_ see red. Ever accidentally walk down the Barbie aisle of the toy store? That’s far more panic-inducing than soothing. _shudder_
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### Author:  [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2005, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-locker-rooms-and-a-knee-jerk-feminist/322982/29 "2005-09-23T05:41:59Z")
> [@Giant\_Spongess](#):
>
> I don’t know, lots of pink certainly makes _me_ see red. Ever accidentally walk down the Barbie aisle of the toy store? That’s far more panic-inducing than soothing. _shudder_
Yeah, but that’s mainly because of all the creepy eyes watching… always watching… :eek:
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### Author:  [@Giant\_Spongess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giant_Spongess)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2005, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-locker-rooms-and-a-knee-jerk-feminist/322982/30 "2005-09-23T05:44:50Z")
Nah, I never stay long enough to get a glimpse of the eyes. One gestalten eyeball-whack is enough for furious backtracking.
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### Author:  [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2005, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-locker-rooms-and-a-knee-jerk-feminist/322982/31 "2005-09-23T06:04:39Z")
> [@beagledave](#):
>
> Hey she gives mad props to the Dope and HawkeyeReport (where I obviously found the initial story) on her blog now.
Yeah and she… hey wait a second, did she just write what I thought she did?
> [@](#):
>
> I hope to meet many of you on Tuesday when we can discuss our differences civilly.
As in, “see you next Tuesday?!?” That bitch just called us all a bunch of cunts! I’m outraged at such a blatant use of heteronormative and misogynist language!
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2005, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-locker-rooms-and-a-knee-jerk-feminist/322982/32 "2005-09-23T06:14:43Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#):
>
> As in, “see you next Tuesday?!?” That bitch just called us all a bunch of cunts! I’m outraged at such a blatant use of heteronormative and misogynist language!
Wha? Yeah, an instance where you made something up is _totally_ comparable to her statement of the obvious. Good work.
I don’t think any of this is worth getting worked up over, I’m just surprised her basic point is being disputed.
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### Author:  [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2005, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-locker-rooms-and-a-knee-jerk-feminist/322982/33 "2005-09-23T06:59:26Z")
You’re free not to give a shit, but you have to be an idiot not to pick up on the misogynist slam. What if the tradition was painting watermelons all over the walls. Or putting a giant menorah in the locker room. Or maybe pansy print wallpaper.
It’s just another way to say: “You’re all just a bunch of [fill in your favorite epithet].”
For the record I don’t give a shit. But I gotta stand up for her since what she’s saying is true, and the OP’s being a credulous nincompoop.
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### Author:  [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2005, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-locker-rooms-and-a-knee-jerk-feminist/322982/34 "2005-09-23T08:13:33Z")
> [@NinjaChick](#):
>
> Bwah?
>
> I’d say that the automatic assumption of pink = feminine is far more offensive.
Oh, **Ninja** , you should have been there my freshman year for the Senior Prank skit. Part of it was, of course, a parody of a seminar discussion, and right in the middle of it, one female student stood up and shrieked, “This sketch insults women!!”
:::crickets:::
“Uh…okay…” says the guy MCing the skit. “Sorry; we didn’t mean to offend.” After some murmuring, the sketch continued. I actually thought that was supposed to be part of the act, but I found out later, her objection was that, of the five students in the mock seminar, only one was female, and her lines were all variations on “So, the universe is expanding…” Except, Ms. Voice of Womanhood conveniently overlooked the fact that **all five** of the participants were pursuing different trains of thought. And the way they were played, any or all of them could have been women, and there still would have been potential for objection. If, of course, you’re the kind of [del]psycho bitch[/del] person who thinks that women should always and only be portrayed as brilliant and above reproach.
(And personally, it kills me that anyone can even think about political correctness on a campus that is **completely** inaccessable to the disabled. Er, walking challenged. Or whatever.)
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### Author:  [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2005, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-locker-rooms-and-a-knee-jerk-feminist/322982/35 "2005-09-23T08:48:54Z")
Is the locker room some major injustice that needs to be dealt with? Obviously not. But what’s with these disingenuous claims that the purpose of the locker room isn’t to imply that the opposing players are women?
> [@NinjaChick](#):
>
> Bwah?
>
> I’d say that the automatic assumption of pink = feminine is far more offensive.
I know you don’t really think this, since you know perfectly well that pink is associated with women in our culture. So why would you even say this? How could you possibly construe a straightforward, factual statement about our culture - that pink is associated with femininity - as sexist?
I find your disingenuousness both irritating and extremely puzzling. How could the professor’s recognition that pink is associated with women possibly be sexist? Are you trying to pretend that pink _isn’t_ associated with girls? I don’t see the point in your artifice, then, because we’ve all seen baby clothes.
There’s a weird reactionary tendency that I’ve seen a lot around here, in which any time anyone _recognizes_ sexism (or racism, or homophobia, or what-have-you), the person who recognizes it is ipso facto sexist (or racist, or homophobic). Just as with **NinjaChick** ’s strange assertion here, it depends on everyone pretending we don’t know something that we do - pink _is_ associated with girls. Duh.
In this case, it couldn’t _possibly_ be made more obvious that the opposing players are being called women. It smacks of hiding your head in the sand to try to pretend otherwise. In the context of football, I also don’t see it as a problem, since there’s a certain locker room culture at play, and these things are acceptable partially because the locker room is a men’s only space. But even if I think the insult is trivial and needs to be understood in context, it’s absolutely obvious. What’s the point in pretending it’s not there? **NinjaChick** , and the rest of you - why do you deny something so obvious as the color symbolism of pink? You might as well base your argument on a claim that water is dry.
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### Author:  [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2005, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-locker-rooms-and-a-knee-jerk-feminist/322982/36 "2005-09-23T10:33:31Z")
::shrug::
It is gender-appropriate for women to act like women, and to be perceived to act like women.
It is not gender-appropriate for men to act like women, or to be perceived to act like women.
There’s scope to discuss the above assertions, but at any rate, that, and nothing more pernicious, is all the mindset you need to get behind to understand why it is an insult for a man to be likened to a woman; especially in a field of endeavour in which traditional masculine attributes are particularly accentuated.
Not that there is _inherently_ anything wrong with being female. It is, obviously, nonsensical to argue that there is anything inherently wrong with either sex. But the insult is in being likened to something which it is not appropriate to be. An arsehole is a biological necessity. A cunt ditto, not to mention a source of considerable delight unless your tastes don’t happen to run that way. I still don’t happen to enjoy being called either an arsehole or a cunt.
::shrug again::
Storm in a teacup.
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### Author:  [@Long\_Time\_First\_Time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Long_Time_First_Time)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2005, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-locker-rooms-and-a-knee-jerk-feminist/322982/37 "2005-09-23T12:34:38Z")
If Ms. Buzuvis is concerned about the locker room because:
“It’s also harmful to University of Iowa–it makes it more difficult to attract students, athletes, and professors to come here when they perceive it as an institution that endorses sexist and homophobic practices.”
She might turn her attention to getting Steve Alford fired. All he and others in the athletic department did was interfer in a rape investigation (the rapist just happened to be a star on the basketball team at the time), and then declare that the admitted rapist was a victim too. Then they let him play on the basketball team for another year. The player got into trouble again (big surprise there), but since he was no longer useful, he was dropped from the team. Alford is the absolute spawn of Satan.
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2005, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-locker-rooms-and-a-knee-jerk-feminist/322982/38 "2005-09-23T14:51:42Z")
> [@uglybeech](#):
>
> …putting a giant menorah in the locker room.
The medical school has a football team?
Oi.
Regards,
Shodan
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### Author:  [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2005, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-locker-rooms-and-a-knee-jerk-feminist/322982/39 "2005-09-23T16:24:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> I strongly doubt that’s the point. The point is that telling a football player “you = women and gay men” is an insult to the women and gay men because it says “a comparison to you is an insult.” Elements of a tautology there, I know.
To analogize: let us suppose that two women are talking about how to console a crying infant, and they say of another woman that “she looks and sounds like a man when she’s holding that baby.” Should I, as a man, be insulted by that?
Of course not. Men, generally speaking and certainly if they haven’t been fathers for awhile, tend to be less skilled in childcare.
It is empirical fact that a team of women (and actually, I associate pink more with little _girls_ than grown women) would be less likely to win a tackle football game than a team of 18-23 year old men.
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### Author:  [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pink-locker-rooms-and-a-knee-jerk-feminist/322982/40 "2005-09-23T16:55:45Z")
> [@Excalibre](#):
>
> Is the locker room some major injustice that needs to be dealt with? Obviously not. But what’s with these disingenuous claims that the purpose of the locker room isn’t to imply that the opposing players are women?
Ahem.
> [@beagledave](#):
>
> When Hayden Fry became head football coach at Iowa in the late 70s, one of the first things he did was to have the walls in the visiting teams locker room painted pink. He was a psychology major in college…_ **he claimed that the color scheme could be used to mellow out the opposing team because pink was a passive/soothing color.** _
Emphasis mine. As also stated in the first article linked to in the OP, the original logic was that it was a soothing color that would mellow out the team before taking the field.
I’m not arguing that in our society pink = feminine. I’m just saying that for a self-proclaimed feminist to automatically assume that any use of pink is thereby ‘feminizing’ in effect is absurd. Many of my male friends often wear pink shirts - are they effectively labelling themselves as female? Furthermore: is there any good reason why pink _should_ be equated with femininity? THere’s no such color-label with masculinity. One of the women’s locker rooms at my high school was yellow, the other was shades of green and blue. Were any of these ‘masculine’?
Honestly? I think the whole thing is stupid. If she’s so concerned about feminism and whatnot, why the fuck is she so stressed about a sport which, generally speaking, is entirely exclusive to women?
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