# Pinochet passes -- what is his legacy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 11, 2006, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-passes-what-is-his-legacy/383690 "2006-12-11T15:31:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-passes-what-is-his-legacy/383690/1 "2006-12-11T15:31:03Z")
[Augusto Pinochet,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet) the general who overthrew the democratically elected socialist government of [President Salvador Allende](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Allende) in a military [_coup d’etat_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat) in 1973 and ruled the country until 1990, has [died.](http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/11/news/chile.php) Time, I guess, to debate his legacy. Most people remember Pinochet mainly for the “disappearances” and other human rights abuses of his dictatorship, but some conservatives **(American** conservatives, mainly) remember him as the hero who saved Chile from going the way of Cuba. But, was Chile really in any great danger of that? Would Allende have canceled the next election, or refused to step down if he lost it? IOW, would Chile have been better or worse off if Pinochet had never seized power? As for American involvement in the coup, that needs to be debated in a separate thread, which I’ll start shortly. [Some](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=355119) [earlier](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=350187) [relevant](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=317241) [threads.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=241595) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-passes-what-is-his-legacy/383690/2 "2006-12-11T15:40:04Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] As for American involvement in the coup, that needs to be debated in a separate thread, which I’ll start shortly. [/QUOTE] [Here ya go.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=399626) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-passes-what-is-his-legacy/383690/3 "2006-12-11T15:50:41Z")
Concurrent [MPSIMS thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=399592) ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-passes-what-is-his-legacy/383690/4 "2006-12-11T16:14:09Z")
Chile is one of the more stable, economically prosperous, and free Latin American countries. Pinochet, for all his flaws (and they are legion) helped pave the way for this. And, unlike many other dictators, he stepped down voluntarily. He deserves condemnation for his human rights record, but it is unfair to put him in the same category as Castro or Somoza. If I would have had to live in a country ruled by a dictator, Chile in the 80’s seems like a better choice than almost any place else. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-passes-what-is-his-legacy/383690/5 "2006-12-11T16:20:50Z")
I’ve yet to see good evidence that Allende was the sort of leader who would have gone the way of Castro and Pinochet in terms of crackdowns. If anything, his downfall was that he stuck to democratic procedures in the face of deliberate foreign sabotage and finally a coup. If a foreign government was working to undermine the US economy and destroy key infrastructure as well as bribe, cajole and otherwise influence members of Congress to try and overthrow the President, I have a feeling we wouldn’t call it anything other than international terrorism. But of course, we don’t, because that would means whatever Orwellian convenience we need it to mean. Here’s the freeper response to the human rights issue today: > [@](#): > > To: My Favorite Headache > “There have been several detailed reports which describe the human rights abuses carried out by the Pinochet regime.” > Since the commies are not humans, but rather beasts in human shape, abusing them does not amount to human rights violation [not being humans, they can have no such rights], but at most can be represented as cruelty to animals. Thus your argument does not hold water and is fellatious. > 36 posted on 12/10/2006 10:10:20 AM PST by GSlob ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-passes-what-is-his-legacy/383690/6 "2006-12-11T17:07:12Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] I’ve yet to see good evidence that Allende was the sort of leader who would have gone the way of Castro and Pinochet in terms of crackdowns. If anything, his downfall was that he stuck to democratic procedures in the face of deliberate foreign sabotage and finally a coup. [/QUOTE] Read the declaration passed against him in the Chamber of Deputies just before the coup. It lays out the charges of constitutional and democratic violation against Allende, and calls for the military to overthrow him and restore democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-passes-what-is-his-legacy/383690/7 "2006-12-11T17:24:10Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Read the declaration passed against him in the Chamber of Deputies just before the coup. It lays out the charges of constitutional and democratic violation against Allende, and calls for the military to overthrow him and restore democracy. [/QUOTE] If you call what went on under Pinochet “democracy”, then I’ll gladly take Allende’s violations. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-passes-what-is-his-legacy/383690/8 "2006-12-11T17:30:12Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] If you call what went on under Pinochet “democracy”, then I’ll gladly take Allende’s violations. [/QUOTE] It’s not a matter of black and white. Because Pinochet was a bastard, that doesn’t make Allende a good guy. And we know what Pinochet did because he stuck around and did it. We don’t know how Allende would have acted and what the results would have been if he had ruled for 16 years. It’s possible he could have ended up repressing his opponents worse than Pinochet did. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-passes-what-is-his-legacy/383690/9 "2006-12-11T17:40:25Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] It’s not a matter of black and white. Because Pinochet was a bastard, that doesn’t make Allende a good guy. And we know what Pinochet did because he stuck around and did it. We don’t know how Allende would have acted and what the results would have been if he had ruled for 16 years. It’s possible he could have ended up repressing his opponents worse than Pinochet did. [/QUOTE] I never said it made Allende. I was merely pointing out that what happened under Pinochet was far worse. As for being worse, maybe he would have been. And maybe he wouldn’t. Considering he refused to call for martial law during the whole crisis, I’m inclined to say he wouldn’t have. Either way, it doesn’t justify Pinochet, nor the actions of those in office in the US, who aided him. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-passes-what-is-his-legacy/383690/10 "2006-12-11T17:42:01Z")
D’oh! That should read “I never said it made Allende A GOOD GUY.” I noticed that the second after I hit submit, dammit. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-passes-what-is-his-legacy/383690/11 "2006-12-11T17:47:56Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] As for being worse, maybe he would have been. And maybe he wouldn’t. Considering he refused to call for martial law during the whole crisis, I’m inclined to say he wouldn’t have. [/QUOTE] From a practical standpoint, declaring martial law doesn’t help much when it’s the army that’s rebelling. {quote]Either way, it doesn’t justify Pinochet, nor the actions of those in office in the US, who aided him. [/quote] Why doesn’t it? You can look back with hindsight and say, “Oh, Pinochet was terrible, look at how many people were killed”, but at the time, when the coup was going on, who could know what would happen or how it would turn out? It’s easy to condemn from a distance. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-passes-what-is-his-legacy/383690/12 "2006-12-11T19:25:59Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Read the declaration passed against him in the Chamber of Deputies just before the coup. It lays out the charges of constitutional and democratic violation against Allende, and calls for the military to overthrow him and restore democracy. [/QUOTE] But that’s not what they did was it? And it’s not exactly clear that those charges were anything other than part of the coup itself. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-passes-what-is-his-legacy/383690/13 "2006-12-11T19:31:07Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] But that’s not what they did was it? And it’s not exactly clear that those charges were anything other than part of the coup itself. [/QUOTE] Actually, the military _did_ restore democracy. It just took a lot longer than was perhaps preferable. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-passes-what-is-his-legacy/383690/14 "2006-12-11T19:33:55Z")
[_The Nation,_](http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion?pid=146984) as you might expect, regrets only that Pinochet died before he could be convicted. > [@](#): > > Pinochet also embodied a wave of authoritarianism that swept through all of Latin America during the time of his rule. Similar dictatorships imposed their own brand of fear as they clamped down on Brazil, Uruguay, Paraguay, Bolivia and Peru. > > Encouraged by the Reagan Administration in Washington and rising Thatcherism in Europe, these military regimes instituted a savage free-market capitalism, in many cases reversing decades of carefully constructed social welfare reforms. At gunpoint unions were outlawed, labor laws were abolished, universities were stifled, tuition was hiked, national healthcare and social security programs were privatized, and these already unequal societies were rigidly stratified into rich and poor, strong and weak, the favored and the invisible. > > Pinochet even attempted to build a new Terror International by setting up what became known as Operation Condor. Established in Santiago, the short-lived network aimed at making repression and murder more efficient through increased coordination, information-sharing and joint secret operations among the allied dictatorships. The most prominent victims of this alliance in murder were former Chilean Ambassador Orlando Letelier and his associate Ronni Moffett, blown apart by a 1976 car bomb in downtown Washington, DC–a bomb set by Pinochet’s dreaded secret police, known as DINA. > > Even after this barbaric act of terror, even after the world began to learn of Pinochet’s other mass crimes, it was jarring to see how much the American press still pandered to him as the man who was bringing economic revival to Chile. No matter that his “shock therapy” nostrums prescribed by the recently deceased Milton Friedman pushed Chile to the brink of bankruptcy and that the first public rebellions against the regime in 1983 were motivated as much by hunger as political rage. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-passes-what-is-his-legacy/383690/15 "2006-12-11T19:41:44Z")
[QUOTE=Renob] If I would have had to live in a country ruled by a dictator, Chile in the 80’s seems like a better choice than almost any place else. [/QUOTE] I’ve heard him described as the least evil of the latin american dictators. That’s pretty damn faint praise. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-passes-what-is-his-legacy/383690/16 "2006-12-11T19:43:20Z")
[QUOTE=Apos] But that’s not what they did was it? And it’s not exactly clear that those charges were anything other than part of the coup itself. [/QUOTE] But it is clear. Those were the primary objections to Allende within Chile…that he was centralizing power, suppressing dissent, and using government programs, including but not limited to nationalization and land reform to build up extraconstitutional institutions that paralelled government institutions, but were loyal to Allende and the leftist parties, like the creation of millitias by the Movement for the Revolutionary Left. Look, I don’t have much use for Pinochet. The guy was nasty. But lets not sugarcoat Allende. He was a Communist, and he wanted to establish a Communist dictatorship in Chile. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-passes-what-is-his-legacy/383690/17 "2006-12-11T19:55:28Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] From a practical standpoint, declaring martial law doesn’t help much when it’s the army that’s rebelling. {quote]Either way, it doesn’t justify Pinochet, nor the actions of those in office in the US, who aided him. [/quote] Why doesn’t it? You can look back with hindsight and say, “Oh, Pinochet was terrible, look at how many people were killed”, but at the time, when the coup was going on, who could know what would happen or how it would turn out? It’s easy to condemn from a distance. [/QUOTE] Well, I suppose we’ll never know, will we. So that justifies the reign of Pinochet? Let’s see, from what I can recall, a lot of the problems during Allende’s tenure were caused by US interference, to purposely make the economy collapse. Richard Nixon is quoted saying he wanted to make the Chilean economy “scream”. From what I’ve read about Allende, no, he wasn’t a saint, but he WAS committed to democracy. And he was, unlike his successor, elected by the people. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-passes-what-is-his-legacy/383690/18 "2006-12-11T20:07:08Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] But lets not sugarcoat Allende. He was a Communist, and he wanted to establish a Communist dictatorship in Chile. [/QUOTE] Cite? Just because he was a communist means he wanted a dictatorship? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-passes-what-is-his-legacy/383690/19 "2006-12-11T20:10:06Z")
Allende was **not** a Communist. He was a democratic socialist. There is a difference, you know. [Michelle Bachelet,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Bachelet) like Allende, was elected president as the candidate of the [Socialist Party of Chile.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Party_of_Chile) ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2006, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-passes-what-is-his-legacy/383690/20 "2006-12-11T20:21:04Z")
Whatever his faults, he helped the UK during the Falklands War. It was disgraceful that we ‘detained’ him on the basis of a Spanish ‘judge’ trying to accuse him of a crime committed in South America by people who may or may not have been his junior subordinates. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-passes-what-is-his-legacy/383690.md?page=2)