# Pinochet stripped of immunity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 20, 2006, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-stripped-of-immunity/340935 "2006-01-20T23:54:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-stripped-of-immunity/340935/1 "2006-01-20T23:54:08Z")
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4632562.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4632562.stm) I’m worried by this. What happenned while he was in power is well documented, but he stepped down peacefully on certain conditions. Now those conditions are being broken. How in future will we be able to persuade a dictator to step aside? \*“We promise you total immunity.” “I don’t believe you’ll keep your promise: you did that with Pinochet.”\* Is it better to keep our word or to prosecute a dictator for the evils of his reign? For the reason given in the exchange above, I believe that while the latter may give short-term satisfaction, the former offers a better long term solution. What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-stripped-of-immunity/340935/2 "2006-01-21T00:03:36Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I’m worried by this. What happenned while he was in power is well documented, but he stepped down peacefully on certain conditions. Now those conditions are being broken. How in future will we be able to persuade a dictator to step aside? I’m curious about the legal reasoning the Court used in deciding that Pinochet should not have immunity. Any ideas? But the incentive argument cuts both ways. It’s true that murderous dictators will have less incentive to step down because they may be prosecuted for their crimes. But now dictators have (more) incentive to not torture thousands of their own people because they may be prosecuted for their crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-stripped-of-immunity/340935/3 "2006-01-21T00:40:41Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > But now dictators have (more) incentive to not torture thousands of their own people because they may be prosecuted for their crimes. I disagree. Simply because a dictator will likely do whatever it takes to stay in power until the writing is clearly on the wall. Or, more simple, they don’t think that far ahead. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-stripped-of-immunity/340935/4 "2006-01-21T01:11:10Z")
Can’t find a cite, but I seem to recall an ancient Roman proverb: “It is better to break a bad vow than to keep it.” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-stripped-of-immunity/340935/5 "2006-01-21T02:13:51Z")
Well I say it’s about time. Let the bastard pay for his crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-stripped-of-immunity/340935/6 "2006-01-21T11:22:01Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Well I say it’s about time. Let the bastard pay for his crimes. So how in future would you peacefully persuade a dictator to step down? She now knows she can’t trust you. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-stripped-of-immunity/340935/7 "2006-01-21T15:35:58Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > So how in future would you peacefully persuade a dictator to step down? She now knows she can’t trust you. This wasn’t a negotiated immunity. It was placed into the 1980 Constitution by Pinochet in a rigged plebeiscite. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-stripped-of-immunity/340935/8 "2006-01-21T15:50:16Z")
I recall an old saying that might apply here as well: “Promises made under duress are not binding.” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-stripped-of-immunity/340935/9 "2006-01-21T19:46:51Z")
Like \*\*Evil Captor \*\* said, but one has to take into account that most of the legal maneuvers against Pinochet occurred in other countries like England or Spain, that gave the Chileans a good reason to prosecute. Also the Chileans did not really strip all the immunity: the Chileans found a loophole: [http://www.redress.btinternet.co.uk/pinochet2.htm](http://www.redress.btinternet.co.uk/pinochet2.htm) > [@](#): > > This agreement was signed in July 2000 as the prosecution of Pinochet and other military officers was gathering momentum in Chilean courts. During Pinochet’s regime, which lasted from 1973 to 1990, he issued an amnesty decree, exempting military officials from crimes during the most intense period of repression. But Chilean judges found a loophole in the decree by arguing that the disappeared were “on going crimes” since their deaths cannot be ascertained. Pinochet, for example, is being prosecuted for the 18 disappeared victims of the Caravan of Death. A total of 75 people were summarily executed by the Caravan, but Pinochet cannot be tried for the remaining victims because their burial sites and bodies have been located. > > But the military’s hopes of stemming the pressure for prosecution by providing information on some of the disappeared victims have failed abysmally. The public was aghast as the military, for the first time, acknowledged its direct responsibility in disappearing and murdering opponents of the Pinochet regime. The macabre details of many deaths are revealed in the report. Some victims were “thrown in the ocean from helicopters”, others were interred in “mine pits”, and still others were tossed in deep holes dug in military forts near their execution sites. Independent of the report, an officer involved in dumping people in the ocean declared: “We split their stomachs open while they were alive to stop them from floating.” The logic is that if you can not produce the body, victims might still be imprisioned somewere or their remains are hideen to protect criminal prosecution of non-military elements of the Chilean elite that commited crimes to support Pinochet. Chile now has legislation protecting the right of relatives of the “disappeared” to pursue the truth about the fate of their loved ones. So even though the military cannot be prosecuted for murder, they are prosecuted for obstructiing justice: for attempting to stop the right to know the fate of your relatives and friends. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-stripped-of-immunity/340935/10 "2006-01-21T20:13:13Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > So how in future would you peacefully persuade a dictator to step down? She now knows she can’t trust you. IIRC, Pinochet didn’t exactly step down-he was in Spain when he was arrested on charges of crimes against humanity or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-stripped-of-immunity/340935/11 "2006-01-21T21:37:27Z")
IIRC he was indited by a Spanish judge a few years back, long after he stepped down, when he was in the U.K. He was under house arrest at Wentworth. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-stripped-of-immunity/340935/12 "2006-01-22T03:14:24Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > So how in future would you peacefully persuade a dictator to step down? She now knows she can’t trust you. Kill her. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-stripped-of-immunity/340935/13 "2006-01-22T17:53:13Z")
How many dictators step aside peacefully? Very few from what I can tell. Most die in office, are overthrown or their government falls apart. Since most dictators are not willing to step aside peacefully telling them by using Pinochet as an example that your own people will arrest you and/or that you cannot travel internationally for fear of arrest may be a deterrent. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-stripped-of-immunity/340935/14 "2006-01-22T18:43:00Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > IIRC, Pinochet didn’t exactly step down-he was in Spain when he was arrested on charges of crimes against humanity or something like that. That’s not true. He lost a plebiscite in 1988, and stepped down pursuant to that, once a new President had been elected. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-stripped-of-immunity/340935/15 "2006-01-22T21:00:17Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > That’s not true. He lost a plebiscite in 1988, and stepped down pursuant to that, once a new President had been elected. Sorry, my bad, I remembered wrong. Either way, from what I understand, wasn’t his party largely in charge? ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-stripped-of-immunity/340935/16 "2006-01-22T21:40:57Z")
> [@Wesley Clark](#): > > How many dictators step aside peacefully? Very few from what I can tell. Most die in office, are overthrown or their government falls apart. Since most dictators are not willing to step aside peacefully telling them by using Pinochet as an example that your own people will arrest you and/or that you cannot travel internationally for fear of arrest may be a deterrent. ocupacional hazzard? ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-stripped-of-immunity/340935/17 "2006-01-22T21:54:16Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > [BBC NEWS | Americas | Blow to Pinochet in rights case](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4632562.stm) > > I’m worried by this. What happenned while he was in power is well documented, but he stepped down peacefully on certain conditions. Now those conditions are being broken. How in future will we be able to persuade a dictator to step aside? > > \*“We promise you total immunity.” > > “I don’t believe you’ll keep your promise: you did that with Pinochet.”\* > > Is it better to keep our word or to prosecute a dictator for the evils of his reign? For the reason given in the exchange above, I believe that while the latter may give short-term satisfaction, the former offers a better long term solution. > > What do you think? fyi … pinochet has been stripped of his immunity several times before (taxfraud w/ riggs bank, etc…) this is the first time that he had been stripped of immunity for human rights issues … I am pretty sure he will be stripped even more often in the future as he has literally dozens or 100s of trials ahead of him. His workaround: everytime he needs to appear in court, he is flown by helicopter to the army hospital where he is diagnosed with XXXXX (insert random desease that a 90 yr. old could suffer). so he aint gonna be SENTENCED, but he sure does have a rather crappy life (he is not enjailed, but under housearrest) … Not even within his very own UDI (Union Democrata Independiente [UDI](http://www.udi.cl/) ) he is pretty much considered a persona non grata. There were presidential elections las dic. and the UDI candidate steered way clear of him or the few who still would touch him … who says there is no justice in life? cheers alfred ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-stripped-of-immunity/340935/18 "2006-01-22T23:01:27Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > ocupacional hazzard? A dictator should have the professional pride to commit suicide in his bunker, dammit! Don’t we have any standards any more?! ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2006, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-stripped-of-immunity/340935/19 "2006-01-23T02:42:34Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > So how in future would you peacefully persuade a dictator to step down? She now knows she can’t trust you. In one hand I think that I´d rather set a precedent that persuades them to NOT step up in the first place. On the other hand, in the case of my own country while the dictatorship lasted there wasn´t one big General Bananas running things and the goverment was more or less handed to them by the then president Bordaberry. But after they were voted out the pact was of total amnesty for crimes commited during the 1972-1984 period. That has been upheld so far, but there are a few loopholes that are being exploited to nail people that commited crimes during AND before the stipulated date, and that´s quite fine by me. If Pinochet can be indicted for things that weren´t specifically ruled out by the amnesty I´m all for it. But if there is a treaty that gives amnesty for the crimes Mr. Pinnochio commited while he held power, it must be enforced and should not be violated. Now if you´d excuse me I have to puke my guts out. ---
**Author:** ![booklyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@booklyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/booklyn)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2006, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pinochet-stripped-of-immunity/340935/20 "2006-01-29T23:34:20Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Well I say it’s about time. Let the bastard pay for his crimes. Right on! Murder and torture are wrong no matter who is in power. Great book out now on the CIA’s setting up Operation Condor so the dictators in Latin America could better persecute their political enemies. The Condor Years By John Dinges.