# Piper Cub thinks there's something hinky going on at Buckingham Palace **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 3, 2016, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433 "2016-06-03T23:01:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/41 "2016-06-06T04:26:38Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > I don’t think that is the current convention. The current convention is that women share in the titles held by their _husbands_. I’m _shocked_ to hear that my nation’s monarchy has no established conventions for LGBT monarchs. I assume that Westeros guidelines would be followed? Would this be a good time to talk about Republicanism? Unfortunately, we missed the opportunity to have Tony Benn as our first elected head of state. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/42 "2016-06-06T07:40:16Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > I can’t say I disagree with her. Kings have queens consort; it’s a relic of sexism that regnal queens can’t have a king as a spouse. There’s no reason the UK parliament couldn’t invent the title of “King Consort” if they wanted to. Indeed, but since a king was always the one in charge, whereas a queen might be either a consort or queen regnant, that might, you know, give him _ideas_ - and there was some anxiety in certain quarters about Philip, and most notably his uncle, in the early days. The only precedents are Mary I’s marriage to Philip II of Spain (not generally considered an unalloyed success) and the joint reign of William III and Mary II (he had some claim in his own right, which is why they had been married in the first place, and more to the point he had seen off Louis XIV, but she lent a little extra legitimacy to what was, in effect, a parliamentary coup d’état). ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/43 "2016-06-06T07:54:22Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > “Prince” is not a separate rank, like “Duke”, “Marquess”, “Earl” or “Baron”, it’s a title that, in British context, means “relative of the sovereign”, and is applied to all British dukes, on the theory that they are honorary cousins of the Queen. Prince Phillip is a prince because he’s the Duke of Edinburgh; Prince William’s because he’s the Duke of Cambridge; and so on. All dukes are princes in an obsolete lowercase-p usage that probably not even all dukes are aware of, but they’re not all Princes of the United Kingdom. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/44 "2016-06-06T11:57:14Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Indeed, but since a king was always the one in charge, whereas a queen might be either a consort or queen regnant, that might, you know, give him _ideas_ - and there was some anxiety in certain quarters about Philip, and most notably his uncle, in the early days. > > The only precedents are Mary I’s marriage to Philip II of Spain (not generally considered an unalloyed success) and the joint reign of William III and Mary II (he had some claim in his own right, which is why they had been married in the first place, and more to the point he had seen off Louis XIV, but she lent a little extra legitimacy to what was, in effect, a parliamentary coup d’état). Both Denmark and the Netherlands have used the same title (Prince) for the spouse of their Queen Regent in the 20th century. I suspect this is a tradition likely to stay - and quite frankly, European monarchies are pretty much just about tradition (and tourism) at this point in time. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/45 "2016-06-06T12:11:49Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > There were more problems with Edward and Wallace - starting with huge problems with Edward. He was irresponsible, not terribly bright, and admired Hitler. He thought the King should have more power in the UK than had evolved over time. He had no children, and Wallis was still young enough to produce an heir. And Wallis was not trusted to be faithful, twice married, known to have lovers. (Though there was reason to believe both of them infertile when they married). He was young and likely to be King for a long time. > > Charles has two heirs and Camilla is well past the age where she will have children. Charles is kind of a goof, and sometimes says things that overstep, but he really isn’t interested in recreating a powerful monarchy. He is pretty responsible, and he isn’t stupid. He’s already 67 years old - and while his family likes to live a long time, it isn’t likely to be more than a twenty five year reign. > > Moreover, it was 1936. Wallis was an American, a divorcee and a commoner - all those things were important in 1936. Heck, they were important when Charles married Diana in 1981. But now, those things are much less important. > > As to Camilla being styled Queen, the palace has no official position on it at this time. I suspect it will be a bridge crossed when it needs to be crossed. Its the monarchy, while the public opinion is important, in the end Charles will get to decide what title his wife uses. Exactly. Charles will be King, whatever title Camilla takes, the Daily Mail reading fantasists just need to get over it, as they dismount from their moral high horses. Charles and Camilla are very clearly very happy, and she is very good for him (unlike Diana). ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/46 "2016-06-06T12:17:31Z")
I believe the Netherlands actually switched to having princesses consort rather than queens consort, but flinched when it finally came time to follow through. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/47 "2016-06-06T15:03:32Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > All dukes are princes in an obsolete lowercase-p usage that probably not even all dukes are aware of, but they’re not all Princes of the United Kingdom. Except, presumably, the Duke of Lancaster, who I’m pretty sure is not a prince Wouldn’t be wholly surprised to be wrong there mind, odder things have happened with the royals. ---
**Author:** ![Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58956e/32.png) [@Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emtar_KronJonDerSohn)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/48 "2016-06-06T17:26:39Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Hey, we’re _this close_ to having a First Gentleman in the United States! Yet he already holds the title President. It makes “Dr and Dr So-and-so” address labels look downright quaint. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/49 "2016-06-07T01:47:06Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > Except, presumably, the Duke of Lancaster, who I’m pretty sure is not a prince > > Wouldn’t be wholly surprised to be wrong there mind, odder things have happened with the royals. The last Duke of Lancaster was Henry V. The Duchy of Lancaster continues to exist, but there is no duke. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/50 "2016-06-07T02:49:23Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The last Duke of Lancaster was Henry V. The Duchy of Lancaster continues to exist, but there is no duke. There certainly is a Duke of Lancaster. It’s Elizabeth herself. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/51 "2016-06-07T03:46:50Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > There certainly is a Duke of Lancaster. It’s Elizabeth herself. She possesses the duchy, but she isn’t a duke. The duchy is an asset owned by the crown, not something she has on the side, in a separate role. She cannot be a duke any more than she can hold a drivers license or be granted a passport. (She has consented to use of the title in certain circumstances like toasts, but that just means she’s _called_ a duke. Everybody in England is free to be called a duke if they wish, so long as they don’t commit fraud.) ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/52 "2016-06-07T10:42:30Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > She possesses the duchy, but she isn’t a duke. The duchy is an asset owned by the crown, not something she has on the side, in a separate role. She cannot be a duke any more than she can hold a drivers license or be granted a passport. (She has consented to use of the title in certain circumstances like toasts, but that just means she’s _called_ a duke. Everybody in England is free to be called a duke if they wish, so long as they don’t commit fraud.) Eh? I grew up in Lancaster, she was always, by everyone, referred to as the [Duke](http://www.duchyoflancaster.co.uk/about-the-duchy/our-people/duke-chancellor-and-the-officers/). Going to need a pretty good counter cite to convince me otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/53 "2016-06-07T10:48:03Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Both Denmark and the Netherlands have used the same title (Prince) for the spouse of their Queen Regent in the 20th century. Yes, although it may be worth noting that between 2005 and 2016, the title of the Danish Queen’s husband was actually “Prince Consort” (_prinsgemal_) rather than “Prince” (_prins_). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/54 "2016-06-08T18:25:41Z")
> [@glee](#): > > The reason I hope that the succession passes to William and Catherine is that I detest the way Charles behaved. > If he wanted to marry Camilla, he should have done so immediately (even resigning as Heir to the throne), not had a adulterous marriage with Diana. I’m inclined to agree, but don’t particularly hope or expect that the Crown will go directly from Elizabeth to her grandson. > [@Chronos](#): > > …Now, where it would get really sticky would be if we had a lesbian monarch. If both the monarch and her spouse are female, the current convention would give them both the same title, even though one would be monarch and the other merely decorative. I suppose that would depend on her looks, wouldn’t it? > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > That was the case with Queen Adelaide in 1837. She was the Quern Dowager after William IV died and Victoria became Queen. Cool. I’ve never seen a Quern, Dowager or otherwise, before. > [@Shagnasty](#): > > Oddly, the respective titles would be exactly the same as your scenario if they were both really flamboyant gay men. Oh, _behave!_ > [@Filbert](#): > > …I grew up in Lancaster, she was always, by everyone, referred to as the [Duke](http://www.duchyoflancaster.co.uk/about-the-duchy/our-people/duke-chancellor-and-the-officers/)… Indeed. She’s also the Lord of Mann and the Duke of Normandy. > **[Lord of Mann](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Mann)** > > The Lord of Mann (Manx: Çhiarn Vannin) is the lord proprietor and head of state of the Isle of Man, currently King Charles III. Before 1504, the title was King of Mann. > Since 1399, the kings and lords of Mann were vassals of the kings of England who were the ultimate sovereigns of the island. This right of 'lord proprietor' was revested into the Crown by the Isle of Man Purchase Act 1765 for £70,000 and a £2,000 annuity, at which point it became a self-governing British Crown Dependency. King... > **[Duke of Normandy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Normandy#Duke_of_Normandy_.28British_monarch.29)** > > In the Middle Ages, the duke of Normandy was the ruler of the Duchy of Normandy in north-western France. The duchy arose out of a grant of land to the Viking leader Rollo by the French king Charles the Simple in 911. In 924 and again in 933, Normandy was expanded by royal grant. Rollo's male-line descendants continued to rule it until 1135, and cognatic descendants ruled it until 1204. In 1202 the French king Philip II declared Normandy a forfeited fief and by 1204 his army had conquered it. It... ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/55 "2016-06-09T02:57:21Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > Mary’s husband was Phillip II of Spain, already a king in his own right. He wasn’t. He married Mary in 1554, and didn’t become king of Spain until 1556. At the time of his marriage, he was Prince of Asturias and Girona (and had a bunch of other titles…their joint titles were “Philip and Mary, by the Grace of God King and Queen of England, Spain, France, Jerusalem, both the Sicilies and Ireland, Defenders of the Faith, Archdukes of Austria, Dukes of Burgundy, Milan and Brabant, Counts of Habsburg, Flanders and Tirol.”. She brought England, France, and Ireland to the table, the rest of the titles were his.) ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/56 "2016-06-09T05:15:11Z")
Mary II’s husband was King William III, but then, he was third in line anyway, behind her sister Anne. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/57 "2016-06-09T05:45:17Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Yes, although it may be worth noting that between 2005 and 2016, the title of the Danish Queen’s husband was actually “Prince Consort” (_prinsgemal_) rather than “Prince” (_prins_). Henrik has been vocally unhappy about that (see post no. 2). ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/58 "2016-06-09T06:56:12Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > Henrik has been vocally unhappy about that (see post no. 2). Indeed. A tedious, long-running soap opera, that one. He’s a cool cat, though - Denmark’s Zlatan, I always say. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/59 "2016-06-10T03:58:53Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > (snip) > Cool. I’ve never seen a Quern, Dowager or otherwise, before. > (snip) [There you go.](http://www.peakscan.freeuk.com/2d4214a0.jpg) > [@Acsenray](#): > > There certainly is a Duke of Lancaster. It’s Elizabeth herself. Shouldn’t she be the _Duchess_ of Lancaster? ---
**Author:** ![peedin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peedin/32/14095_2.png) [@peedin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peedin)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/60 "2016-06-10T14:17:03Z")
How come Diana was Princess Diana, but Catherine is Duchess of Cambridge? William is a Prince, as well as a Duke. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433.md?page=4)