# Piper Cub thinks there's something hinky going on at Buckingham Palace **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 3, 2016, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433 "2016-06-03T23:01:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/61 "2016-06-10T14:23:28Z")
William’s dukedom is his in his own right. He’s a prince because he is the son of the Prince of Wales. In this circumstance Duke takes precedence. At some point William will be PofW and Catherine will be Princess then. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/62 "2016-06-10T14:50:50Z")
> [@peedin](#): > > How come Diana was Princess Diana, but Catherine is Duchess of Cambridge? William is a Prince, as well as a Duke. She wasn’t. She was Lady Diana, Princess of Wales until the divorce (Diana, Princess of Wales after). “Princess Di” is just easier to read in large yellow print in the supermarket checkout line -it wasn’t actually correct. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/63 "2016-06-10T15:57:10Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > She wasn’t. She was Lady Diana, Princess of Wales until the divorce (Diana, Princess of Wales after). “Princess Di” is just easier to read in large yellow print in the supermarket checkout line -it wasn’t actually correct. And the media could call her “Princess Kate” - but the palace asked them not to - out of respect for Diana. Which I suspect was a good face covering exercise of "lets keep the hype and princess stories to a minimum here, it had tragic consequences last time - and she ISN’T a princess. She is entitled to be referred to a Princess William. Which is a usage that has always struck me as arcane. Princess Michael of Kent uses that construction - but as her husband only holds Prince Michael of Kent (his father is styled the Duke of Kent but is still alive), that’s what she has to use. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/64 "2016-06-10T16:08:46Z")
Another titular convention where males are given short shrift is the styling of Earl’s children. All of an Earl’s daughters are “Lady” but only the eldest son is a “Lord.” ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ As mentioned, “Prince” is an ambiguous term. In lower case it can refer to anyone ranking Count/Earl or higher. In Germany the mere son of a Fürst (a rank below Herzog/duke) could be styled Prinz. On the other hand, when Wales was divided into several Kingdoms the several rulers were each titled Brenin (usually translated King) but when these Kingdoms were united under Llywelyn the Great, he was titled Tywysog Cymru (usually translated Prince of All Wales). ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/65 "2016-06-10T18:51:24Z")
Will Harry become Duke of York when Andrew kicks it? Or not until William becomes King? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/66 "2016-06-10T19:22:04Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > He wasn’t. He married Mary in 1554, and didn’t become king of Spain until 1556. At the time of his marriage, he was Prince of Asturias and Girona (and had a bunch of other titles…their joint titles were “Philip and Mary, by the Grace of God King and Queen of England, Spain, France, Jerusalem, both the Sicilies and Ireland, Defenders of the Faith, Archdukes of Austria, Dukes of Burgundy, Milan and Brabant, Counts of Habsburg, Flanders and Tirol.”. She brought England, France, and Ireland to the table, the rest of the titles were his.) (Underline mine) And Viana! :mad: If you’re going to list the princedoms, list all three. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/67 "2016-06-10T20:02:19Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > he was titled **Tywysog Cymru** (usually translated Prince of All Wales.) I’m sorry…but I burst out laughing when I read this. Because, you see…I don’t give a damn how you translate it… I want to know how you _pronounce_ it. ! 🙂 (I used to think that the best username on this site was “Exapno Mapcase”. But now I’ve found a better one…somebody grab this, please! ) [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/68 "2016-06-10T20:12:21Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Will Harry become Duke of York when Andrew kicks it? Or not until William becomes King? If Prince Andrew has no male heirs, the title becomes extinct when he dies. Since it is traditionally given to the second son of the monarch, it’s possible that it could be created again for Harry, but it’s not automatic. Depending on who is the monarch at the time of Andrew’s death, Harry might not be the monarch’s second son at that time. A lot of titles in the royal family are created when the person marries, including Duke of York for Andrew and Duke of Cambridge for William. So Harry might get a title when he marries, but Duke of York might not yet be available. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/69 "2016-06-10T20:13:32Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > And the media could call her “Princess Kate” - One blog I read refers to them as “Bill and Cathy Cambridge.” ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/70 "2016-06-10T20:19:13Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > She wasn’t. She was Lady Diana, Princess of Wales until the divorce… Not quite: [Diana, Princess of Wales - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana,_Princess_of_Wales#Titles_and_styles) > [@septimus](#): > > …As mentioned, “Prince” is an ambiguous term. In lower case it can refer to anyone ranking Count/Earl or higher. In Germany the mere son of a Fürst (a rank below Herzog/duke) could be styled Prinz… Tsarist Russia was almost teeming with princes and princesses: [Anna Karenina - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Karenina#Main_characters) > [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Will Harry become Duke of York when Andrew kicks it? Or not until William becomes King? The title would lapse if Andrew died, I believe, as **SpoilerVirgin** wrote; the Queen or her successor could give it to Harry at any time after that: [Duke of York - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_York). Harry will probably, like his older brother, be named a duke of something upon his marriage, if not before. Some possibilities (and of course an entirely new one could be created): [Royal dukedoms in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_dukedoms_in_the_United_Kingdom#Past_royal_dukedoms) ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/71 "2016-06-10T20:32:26Z")
So if Harry is given a Ducal title other than York upon his marriage, if he is then in the future given the title of Duke of York, would the other title be his as well? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/72 "2016-06-10T20:42:17Z")
Yes, once HM gives a title, it’s yours unless the Parliament takes action to strip you of it. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/73 "2016-06-11T04:06:04Z")
> [@bibliophage](#): > > …On his wedding day his highest title was Duke of Edinburgh, a position which he had held for all of one day. It get’s [weirder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_titles_and_honours_of_Prince_Philip,_Duke_of_Edinburgh#Royal_and_noble_titles_and_styles). For 1 day in 1947 he was actually styled His Royal Highness Sir Philip Mountbatten because of the order in which the letters patent were issued. > [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Yes, but the current official line is that they won’t call her that, and she’ll be called “Princess Consort” instead… She may use a lesser style, but baring an act of parliament to the contrary she will automatically become queen consort the moment Charles ascends the throne. George IV found that out the hard way. > [@Chronos](#): > > …Now, where it would get really sticky would be if we had a lesbian monarch. If both the monarch and her spouse are female, the current convention would give them both the same title, even though one would be monarch and the other merely decorative. This has actually happened in Spain; where unlike in the UK a noblewoman’s husband is entitled to use the masculine form of his wife’s titles. The Duchess of Medina Sidonia married her lover on her deathbed, who is now the Dowager Duchess of Medina Sidonia. > [@Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](#): > > Yet he already holds the title President. It makes “Dr and Dr So-and-so” address labels look downright quaint. No he doesn’t. He’s been Mr Clinton ever since he left office. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > He wasn’t. He married Mary in 1554, and didn’t become king of Spain until 1556… His father made him King of Chile shortly before he married Mary so he’d share the same rank has her. > [@Dangerosa](#): > > Both Denmark and the Netherlands have used the same title (Prince) for the spouse of their Queen Regent in the 20th century. I suspect this is a tradition likely to stay - and quite frankly, European monarchies are pretty much just about tradition (and tourism) at this point in time. I could picture the Swedes going the king consort route when Crown Princess Victoria becomes queen for the sake of gender equality. On hand her husband is only Prince Daniel instead of Crown Prince Daniel, but on the other hand he’s Duke of Västergötland in right of his wife. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/74 "2016-06-17T11:21:46Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > [There you go.](http://www.peakscan.freeuk.com/2d4214a0.jpg) > > Shouldn’t she be the _Duchess_ of Lancaster? WELL, and this may blow your mind, but actually, no, she’s the ‘Duke’ of Lancaster. Duchesses are the wives of Dukes, they don’t hold the seat themselves, whereas QE DOES hold the seat in her own right. So she’s Duke of Lancaster. Us crazy Brits and our weird traditions… ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/75 "2016-06-17T11:26:08Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > She possesses the duchy, but she isn’t a duke. The duchy is an asset owned by the crown, not something she has on the side, in a separate role. She cannot be a duke any more than she can hold a drivers license or be granted a passport. (She has consented to use of the title in certain circumstances like toasts, but that just means she’s _called_ a duke. Everybody in England is free to be called a duke if they wish, so long as they don’t commit fraud.) I don’t know where you’re getting your information, but it certainly isn’t from the Duchy itself, which clearly states she is the Duke. She may hold the title (and estates) because she is the sovereign, but that isn’t any different to Prince Charles holding the title and estates of the Duke of Cornwall by virtue of being the heir to the throne. The Duchy of Lancaster is not part of the Crown estates, it belongs to the Queen in her own right. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433/76 "2016-06-17T11:37:55Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > This has actually happened in Spain; where unlike in the UK a noblewoman’s husband is entitled to use the masculine form of his wife’s titles. The Duchess of Medina Sidonia married her lover on her deathbed, who is now the Dowager Duchess of Medina Sidonia. Note that the titled-by-marriage spouse’s full title will include the “consort” any time there might be confusion, and that they can only use the title-by-marriage if the actual title-holder says so. During the eleven hours they were married, the now Dowager Duchess of Medina-Sidonia was the Duchess Consort of Medina-Sidonia. Once the title-by-marriage has been allowed it can’t be removed (the current Duke of Medina-Sidonia can’t “detitle” his step-mother). Conversely, none of the three husbands of the 18th Duchess of Alba was ever known as a Duke, because she didn’t grant them the right - as a few reporters who made the mistake to address the husband as _señor duque_ were sharply reminded; her widower is not the _duque viudo_ because he was never _duque consorte_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piper-cub-thinks-theres-something-hinky-going-on-at-buckingham-palace/756433.md?page=3)