# Piracy of TV shows **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 18, 2008, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piracy-of-tv-shows/477731 "2008-12-18T12:21:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![firstname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7ab992/32.png) [@firstname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/firstname)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piracy-of-tv-shows/477731/1 "2008-12-18T12:21:10Z")
Its my understanding that downloading music and movies from the internet is copyright infringement, these things are not freely available at a scheduled time, but lets talk about TV shows (lets assume free to air for now). If I download a TV show that i missed from last week am I committing copyright infringement? How about if I live in a different country and download it before it plays on TV where I live? (Assume it would at some point play for free in my country). Also is recording programs off television copyright infringement? Would all this change if it was a show from a cable channel i don’t have? Thanks ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piracy-of-tv-shows/477731/2 "2008-12-18T13:27:35Z")
> [@firstname](#): > > Its my understanding that downloading music and movies from the internet is copyright infringement, these things are not freely available at a scheduled time, but lets talk about TV shows (lets assume free to air for now). > > If I download a TV show that i missed from last week am I committing copyright infringement? If you download it from a site other than one authorized by the copyright owner, yes, it is illegal. > [@](#): > > How about if I live in a different country and download it before it plays on TV where I live? (Assume it would at some point play for free in my country). See above. Downloading from sites other than ones authorized by the copyright owner is illegal. However, if you’re overseas, you may be subject to the copyright law of the country where you live, which is likely to be a signatory to the [Berne Convention](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention_for_the_Protection_of_Literary_and_Artistic_Works), so you’re still on the hook. There’s also the [Buenos Aires Convention](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buenos_Aires_Convention) and possibly the [Rome Convention](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_Convention_for_the_Protection_of_Performers,_Producers_of_Phonograms_and_Broadcasting_Organisations), which governs the recording arts and broadcasting. > [@](#): > > Also is recording programs off television copyright infringement? No. Recording TV programs from television is a form of time-shifting that is permitted by law. (See [_Sony v. Universal_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_v._Universal) for more information.) Of course, this assumes that you’re recording programs using your own equipment for personal use. Once you post it to the Internet, you’re infringing copyright. > [@](#): > > Would all this change if it was a show from a cable channel i don’t have? No. Downloading material from sites other than those authorized by the copyright holder is illegal. My cite for this is the [NET Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NET_Act), which makes exchange of copyrighted material a criminal act even if it’s not for profit. > [@](#): > > Thanks You’re welcome. Robin ---
**Author:** ![firstname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7ab992/32.png) [@firstname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/firstname)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piracy-of-tv-shows/477731/3 "2008-12-18T14:08:34Z")
Thanks for the answer. Seems silly to me that if I record something its legal, but if i download it its illegal. I probably should of said that I live in Australia. Also if it is played on Free to air TV hasn’t the person who owns the copyright basically given permission for everyone to watch it as they please? One additional question what if you watch it on the Authorized site, that is US only when you don’t live in the US, is it still copyright infringement ? ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piracy-of-tv-shows/477731/4 "2008-12-18T14:24:00Z")
> [@firstname](#): > > Seems silly to me that if I record something its legal, but if i download it its illegal. It may be silly. But the point is it’s not up to you. The creator of the work owns the copyright, and he gets to choose how people get to see the show. He’s decided to make it available through certain outlets (presumably because he’s happy with the payment he receives from them) and not through others (presumably because he isn’t satisfied with the payment they’re willing to offer). If you try downloading something from a U.S.-only site and you’re not in the U.S, that is of course infringement. The owner has decided to make it available in the U.S., not in Australia. Maybe because he has other plans of how to distribute it in Oz and doesn’t want to cannibalize his market. Maybe because he doesn’t want to deal with Australia’s regulations of broadcast content. Maybe because he just figures it’s too much hassle to learn all he’d need to about Australian standards and laws to feel confident in releasing his material there. But regardless, that’s his decision. You don’t have a right to watch anything you want, even if you’re willing to pay for it, and especially if you’re not. The owner of artistic works gets to decide when and where to display them, the same way you get to decide to whom you’re going to lend your lawnmower. Also note, **MsRobyn** ’s analysis is correct under U.S. law. It might not be correct under Australian law – specifically, the legality of recording shows off broadcast for home use comes from a specific U.S. Supreme Court case (the aforementioned Sony v. Universal), and there may or may not have been similar developments in the law of other countries. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piracy-of-tv-shows/477731/5 "2008-12-18T14:36:58Z")
> [@firstname](#): > > Thanks for the answer. Seems silly to me that if I record something its legal, but if i download it its illegal. I probably should of said that I live in Australia. > > Also if it is played on Free to air TV hasn’t the person who owns the copyright basically given permission for everyone to watch it as they please? > > One additional question what if you watch it on the Authorized site, that is US only when you don’t live in the US, is it still copyright infringement ? No, because it’s on an authorized site. For example, if you want to watch The Office on Hulu, that’s one thing. NBC controls that and has chosen to make it available. However, if you download it from a torrent site, a third party has made it available, which makes it illegal under US law. By the way, Australia is a signatory to the major copyright conventions, so yes, you’d probably be on the hook there. I don’t know what the Australian law says about time-shifting, but downloading as you’ve described it isn’t the same as time-shifting. I know it seems kind of weird that something that is free to watch on TV would be illegal to download. But networks make additional revenue from syndication, DVD box sets and digital distribution (iTunes and the like). Also, residual income from the sale of these box sets and digital distribution is a serious bone of contention with the actors’ unions and was one of the issues with the writer’s strike, so there’s that, too. The lesson you need to take away is _don’t do it_. The Recording Industry Association of America has been notoriously aggressive about protecting its members’ rights, and there’s no reason to think that other groups won’t do the same. Robin ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piracy-of-tv-shows/477731/6 "2008-12-18T14:47:38Z")
One interesting irony is that there is at least one Australian broadcasting company that won’t let me watch its videos online. It’s blocked non-Australian IPs from viewing its content. (IIRC, it’s the Australian Broadcasting Company, but I could be wrong.) I just read the Terms of Service for [hulu.com](http://hulu.com). They don’t mind if overseas residents use their service, but it is at the discretion of the copyright holders, not Hulu. (I’m using that as the example because it’s one of the largest repositories of legal content on the Internet.) You also agree to submit to US jurisdiction, specifically California law, since the site is based in Los Angeles. And thanks, **Cliffy** for your knowledge and input. Robin ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piracy-of-tv-shows/477731/7 "2008-12-18T16:52:14Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > I just read the Terms of Service for [hulu.com](http://hulu.com). They don’t mind if overseas residents use their service, but it is at the discretion of the copyright holders, not Hulu. (I’m using that as the example because it’s one of the largest repositories of legal content on the Internet.) > > Robin I live in the UK and haven’t been able to watch a single program on Hulu. From their FAQ it seems to be a legal issue, clearing copyright for each country. > [@](#): > > For now, Hulu is a U.S. service only. That said, our intention is to make Hulu’s growing content lineup available worldwide. This requires clearing the rights for each show or film in each specific geography and will take time. We’re encouraged by how many content providers have already been working along these lines so that their programs can be available over the Internet to a much larger, global audience. The Hulu team is committed to making great programming available across the globe [Link](http://www.hulu.com/support/content_faq#outside_us) ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piracy-of-tv-shows/477731/8 "2008-12-18T17:35:30Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > However, if you’re overseas, you may be subject to the copyright law of the country where you live, which is likely to be a signatory to the [Berne Convention](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention_for_the_Protection_of_Literary_and_Artistic_Works), so you’re still on the hook. I’m sure you didn’t imply that the U.S. hasn’t signed the Berne convention, which it did in '88. Very late, but still. Just nitpicking in all freindliness, since it could be read that way. As for Hulu, the production companies want to sell the shows to tv stations in other countries. If I could watch Lost legally onn Hulu the day after the original airdate, I’d never tune in to my local station and they’d get no ad revenue. I’d be surprised if Hulu or someone else didn’t put up similar services in most jusrisdictions. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piracy-of-tv-shows/477731/9 "2008-12-18T18:04:05Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I live in the UK and haven’t been able to watch a single program on Hulu. From their FAQ it seems to be a legal issue, clearing copyright for each country. > > [Link](http://www.hulu.com/support/content_faq#outside_us) I just read the TOS; I didn’t go further than that. And since I’m in the US, I have no way of knowing that it doesn’t work for furriners. 🙂 Robin ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piracy-of-tv-shows/477731/10 "2008-12-18T18:24:47Z")
If I may piggy-back on this question a little; I know it’s possible to get DVR (PVR/whatever your cable company wants to call them) for XXX$ (400$ in my case), but have any cable companies started to show TV shows on a Video-on-Demand basis? It seems to me that being able to pay 1.99$ or whatever on VOD to watch a show that was missed during the preceding 2 weeks (for example) would be a good incentive for a lot of people to avoid getting illegal copies elsewhere. People will skip out on an entire season if they miss one or two episodes of certain shows - seems VOD would be a good money-making way of getting around that. Especially if the shows could be offered in HD and regular-D, which would be much better quality than anything I’ve ever caught online, IME. Does anyone know anything about this? Are any companies doing it, of what are the largest barriers to doing it (contracts, I assume, but if the cable company can already carry NBC shows, then sharing the $$ from VOD of those shows seems pretty straight forward, legally!) ---
**Author:** ![TagAmos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbce88/32.png) [@TagAmos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TagAmos)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piracy-of-tv-shows/477731/11 "2008-12-18T18:37:02Z")
Along these lines, is anyone familiar with [Wixi.com](http://Wixi.com)? Great site for catching full episodes for all sorts of media, but I can’t find much about its legality? ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piracy-of-tv-shows/477731/12 "2008-12-18T19:12:32Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > If I may piggy-back on this question a little; > > I know it’s possible to get DVR (PVR/whatever your cable company wants to call them) for XXX$ (400$ in my case), but have any cable companies started to show TV shows on a Video-on-Demand basis? It seems to me that being able to pay 1.99$ or whatever on VOD to watch a show that was missed during the preceding 2 weeks (for example) would be a good incentive for a lot of people to avoid getting illegal copies elsewhere. People will skip out on an entire season if they miss one or two episodes of certain shows - seems VOD would be a good money-making way of getting around that. Especially if the shows could be offered in HD and regular-D, which would be much better quality than anything I’ve ever caught online, IME. > > Does anyone know anything about this? Are any companies doing it, of what are the largest barriers to doing it (contracts, I assume, but if the cable company can already carry NBC shows, then sharing the $$ from VOD of those shows seems pretty straight forward, legally!) Comcast, my local cable company, offers some network shows on demand, including some NBC shows. It’s included in the price of the cable subscription. Robin ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piracy-of-tv-shows/477731/13 "2008-12-18T21:50:43Z")
> [@TagAmos](#): > > Along these lines, is anyone familiar with [Wixi.com](http://Wixi.com)? Great site for catching full episodes for all sorts of media, but I can’t find much about its legality? > [@](#): > > You will not do any of the following while using or accessing the Site or the Services: > > a. Post, upload, email, or otherwise transmit (i) any Content that you do not have the lawful right to copy, transmit and display (including any Content that would violate any confidentiality or fiduciary obligations that you might have with respect to the Content); (ii) any Content for which you do not have the consent or permission of each identifiable person in the Content to use the name, voice, signature, photograph, or likeness of each such person (to the extent each is implicated by the Content); or (iii) **any Content that infringes the intellectual property rights or violates the privacy rights of any third party (including without limitation copyright, trademark, patent, trade secret, or other intellectual property right, or moral right or right of publicity);** > > b. Delete, or in any manner alter, the copyright, trademark, or other proprietary rights notices appearing on any Content except your User Content; So, just like YouTube, if the copyright owner finds out they’ll remove it. Unless explicitly stated, you can assume anything there is a bootleg. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piracy-of-tv-shows/477731/14 "2008-12-18T22:22:38Z")
Think of it like subletting a flat. Your landlord rents to you and you may or may not have the right to rent the flat to someone else. Or a car rental. You rent it but you aren’t free to let anyone drive it. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2008, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piracy-of-tv-shows/477731/15 "2008-12-18T23:06:18Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > Comcast, my local cable company, offers some network shows on demand, including some NBC shows. It’s included in the price of the cable subscription. > > Robin So I guess it’s just my provider that hasn’t caught on yet. Of course, their VOD menu seems to be Version 0.6 from 1997 as well - it’s pretty terrible. I hope they start doing this, though. I’d love to be able to re-watch or catch up on shows from channels I’m already paying for! ---
**Author:** ![firstname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7ab992/32.png) [@firstname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/firstname)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piracy-of-tv-shows/477731/16 "2008-12-19T00:47:18Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > One interesting irony is that there is at least one Australian broadcasting company that won’t let me watch its videos online. It’s blocked non-Australian IPs from viewing its content. (IIRC, it’s the Australian Broadcasting Company, but I could be wrong.) I just find this sad, especially because the ABC doesn’t make revenue from advertising and I’d imagine that most of their shows wouldn’t get played overseas. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2008, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/piracy-of-tv-shows/477731/17 "2008-12-19T04:27:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Hulu was founded in March 2007 by NBC Universal and News Corp and is operated independently by a dedicated management team with offices in Los Angeles, New York, and Beijing. > > – snip – > > Hulu is an online video service that offers hit TV shows, movies and clips at [Hulu.com](http://Hulu.com) and other online destination sites — all for free, anytime in the U.S. F > > Hulu brings together a large selection of videos from more than 100 content providers, including FOX, NBC Universal, MGM, Sony Pictures Television, Warner Bros. and more. Source: [http://www.hulu.com/about](http://www.hulu.com/about) > [@](#): > > **Q : Why can’t I watch your videos from outside the U.S.?** > For now, Hulu is a U.S. service only. That said, our intention is to make Hulu’s growing content lineup available worldwide. This requires clearing the rights for each show or film in each specific geography and will take time. We’re encouraged by how many content providers have already been working along these lines so that their programs can be available over the Internet to a much larger, global audience. The Hulu team is committed to making great programming available across the globe. Source: [http://www.hulu.com/support/content\_faq#outside\_us](http://www.hulu.com/support/content_faq#outside_us) Yup, it is about copyright.