# Pistol-packing soccer mom's loss of carry permit causes her vagina to close up **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2008, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391 "2008-11-25T04:48:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/41 "2008-11-25T21:23:32Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Alternatively, maybe the “pansies” used their own judgment and thought, “Why the hell is this woman carrying a gun at a soccer game for five-year-olds?” What experience the people at the game had with guns, if any, is an unknown, so we don’t know anybody automatically did anything. Why wouldn’t she? That argument could be used for anything. Why would she carry it to the grocery store? Why would she carry it while hanging out in the country? Why would she carry it driving to work? The idea that a Kid’s soccer game is a weird place to carry a gun just shows that you think any place is weird. If someone is likely to go postal at a kid’s soccer game, not having a concealed permit is rather irrelevant. Like you need a permit to massacre a bleacher full of parents and siblings. Better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it as they say. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/42 "2008-11-25T21:44:54Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I miss the days when people were meant to use their own judgment about people. Back when carrying weapons was common we judged people on an individual basis, and people didn’t automatically freak out at the sight of a gun. > > We’ve become a culture of pansies who want every corner rounded, and for their to be a big strong authority figure to make decisions for them. Serious question: back in the “good old days”, was it in fact common for people to openly carry handguns around in urban areas? I would have thought this was more of a frontier type habit, but I admit that I do not really know. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/43 "2008-11-25T21:49:25Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Serious question: back in the “good old days”, was it in fact common for people to openly carry handguns around in urban areas? I would have thought this was more of a frontier type habit, but I admit that I do not really know. You’re probably right. Though I think it was a lot more common to carry weapons. I knew people growing up in New Mexico who hip holstered a side arm. It was notable, but not a particularly disturbing habit. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/44 "2008-11-25T22:08:18Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Why wouldn’t she? That argument could be used for anything. That’s a fair point. > [@](#): > > The idea that a Kid’s soccer game is a weird place to carry a gun just shows that you think any place is weird. No, not really. It shows I think taking a gun to an activity as tame as a soccer game for five-year-olds is odd. > [@](#): > > If someone is likely to go postal at a kid’s soccer game, not having a concealed permit is rather irrelevant. Like you need a permit to massacre a bleacher full of parents and siblings. I’m not sure what that has to do with anything. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/45 "2008-11-25T22:09:01Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The idea that a Kid’s soccer game is a weird place to carry a gun just shows that you think any place is weird. You go to rougher kids’ soccer games than I do. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/46 "2008-11-25T22:15:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s a fair point. > > No, not really. It shows I think taking a gun to an activity as tame as a soccer game for five-year-olds is odd. As tame as a Luby’s or a College campus? > [@](#): > > I’m not sure what that has to do with anything. That taking away the lady’s concealed carry permit won’t change it. If she wants to go postal she will. People are not made safer by harassing this woman. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/47 "2008-11-25T23:06:35Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > What’s your standard for “should be” here? > > Again, this is a non-comparison. You’re comparing matters of taste to matters of safety, and it doesn’t bolster your case. > > That’s a better comparison. Then again, if the woman was driving her car around the soccer field during the game, she would’ve been arrested and probably denied use of the car because that’s dangerous. > \*\*Then why can’t you carry a gun or a knife on an airplane? \*\* I think carrying a gun on an airplane is a federal law; when I traveled a lot, I always carried a pocket knife with a three inch blade, just because I automatically put it in my pocket. I probably couldn’t do that anymore. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/48 "2008-11-25T23:11:35Z")
Open carry was legal when I lived in Arizona; my first exposure to it was in a theater lobby when a very big guy walked in carrying two 45 caliber automatics in shoulder holsters. Startled me. I don’t know if open carry is still legal there. At one time, long before 9/11 and the insanity that followed, I believe the Phoenix airport led the nation in gun seizures, simply because people attached a holster with a gun inside it to their belts as a matter of course. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/49 "2008-11-25T23:19:17Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > As tame as a Luby’s or a College campus? I’d say tamer, for whatever that’s worth. Of course, there was already a police presence there anyway. > [@](#): > > If she wants to go postal she will. Apparently you’re assuming all killings are premeditated massacres. I’m pretty sure that isn’t the case, so bringing Virginia Tech, Luby’s or any number of other extremely rare occurrences doesn’t contribute much. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/50 "2008-11-25T23:19:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You’re comparing matters of taste to matters of safety, and it doesn’t bolster your case. Some people are uncomfortable around young black men, and consider it a matter of “safety” because part of their prejudice is a belief that young black men are inherently disposed to criminality. This is no more or less rational than fear of law-abiding people carrying firearms. In both cases, it’s _possible_ for the person to do you harm, but you have no rational cause for considering it to be sufficiently _likely_ to constitute a genuine threat. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2008, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/51 "2008-11-25T23:27:51Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > This is no more or less rational than fear of law-abiding people carrying firearms. A black person isn’t a weapon. :rolleyes: A gun, regardless of who is holding it, is a weapon. Look, I’m not arguing for a ban on guns here and I said earlier that the woman in this story, while doing something I consider pointless, was not breaking the law and should not have been treated as if she were. But I think these comparisons of guns to iPhones, beards, and now black people, shade the issue without addressing what a gun actually is, and why it might be rational to treat it as something different from those things, even if freaking out is not warranted. People can feel threatened unjustly by things that are not weapons, but that doesn’t mean feeling threatend by something that actually is a weapon is unjust or unfounded. Anyway, plenty of people use their iPhones and cell phones irresponsibly (while driving, for example), so the assurance that gun owners are responsible, while true in general, does not apply to every gun owner. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/52 "2008-11-26T00:01:12Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > A gun’s a weapon, a phone or a beard isn’t. It’s that simple: it’s more or less impossible to create a major safety issue with a beard, so people generally don’t treat it as a serious issue. While safe gun owners aren’t dangerous, you don’t know from looking if somebody is a responsible gun owner or just an idiot packing heat, and the consequences are different. Somebody with a cell phone or an iPod may turn into a rude jerk, but can’t do much more than inconvenience you. > Part of what makes an iPhone an accessory is the fact that it’s a harmless item used for fun. A gun’s an item used for protection that’s potentially dangerous. You might like people to treat it as just another accessory, but it’s reasonable that they don’t. In my experience, a person with a cell phone and an automobile are much more likely to cause me injury or death than someone legally carrying a gun. Just last month I was turning left at a light on my motorcycle and a woman in an SUV rolled through her red light and turned to her right, right into the lane I was occupying. If her window had been rolled down I could have reached in and taken her phone away from her. > [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t think it’s out of the scope of the discussion at all. The point is that “but it’s scary” does carry some weight: “it’s scary,” in this case, because “it’s dangerous.” Exactly. We can’t take weapons onto planes because the risks outweigh any potential benefit. Scary doesn’t factor in. “It’s scary” is an intangible matter of perception and belief. Danger is a quantifiable datum that some number cruncher can work up an actuarial table on. The purpose of carrying a gun is for protection. If the screeners have done their jobs properly, that potential need doesn’t exist on an airplane. Therefore, risk from violent person = 0. Need for firearm = 0. What makes it out of scope is that it’s an entirely different set of circumstances and controls. Plane = closed, screened access. Public areas = anyone can bring in a weapon. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/53 "2008-11-26T00:37:49Z")
Five year old soccer games can be very dangerous. It amazes me that everybody in attendance wasn’t carrying. Perhaps it should be mandatory. There can never be too many guns around. Some silly people did not know how much safer they were when she had her gun. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/54 "2008-11-26T01:08:07Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > In my experience, a person with a cell phone and an automobile are much more likely to cause me injury or death than someone legally carrying a gun. Just last month I was turning left at a light on my motorcycle and a woman in an SUV rolled through her red light and turned to her right, right into the lane I was occupying. If her window had been rolled down I could have reached in and taken her phone away from her. So lobby to make cell phone usage while driving illegal. Equating guns to beards is ridiculous and a dishonest argument position - a more apt comparison would be people carrying around axes and chainsaws. They’re just tools, right? Tools that are highly dangerous in the unlikely event that the person has a murderous intent or flips their nut or gets drunk or gets angry. Or if somebody near them with the physical ability to take the tool away (ie: hands) does any of the above. Sounds exactly the same to me. So, argue from _that_ position. > [@Projammer](#): > > Exactly. We can’t take weapons onto planes because the risks outweigh any potential benefit. Scary doesn’t factor in. “It’s scary” is an intangible matter of perception and belief. Danger is a quantifiable datum that some number cruncher can work up an actuarial table on. The purpose of carrying a gun is for protection. If the screeners have done their jobs properly, that potential need doesn’t exist on an airplane. Therefore, risk from violent person = 0. Need for firearm = 0. > > What makes it out of scope is that it’s an entirely different set of circumstances and controls. Plane = closed, screened access. Public areas = anyone can bring in a weapon. “Scary” _is_ risk assessment. Fear is risk assessment. And the reasons for wanting to keep a gun out of the plane are _exactly_ the same as wanting to keep them out of anywhere else - the mere presence of a gun makes the situation more dangerous. I find it deeply ironic that the way that the screeners make it okay for you not to have a gun is by _taking your guns away_. (Not to say that I’m necessarily in favor of banning guns, but if these are the best arguments against it, we probably should go ahead and ban 'em.) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/55 "2008-11-26T01:53:04Z")
I carry a cell phone on my person because I might, at some point in the course of the day, have need to contact someone. A person who straps on a gun in the morning does so because they might, at some point in the course of the day, have need to kill someone. Personally, I’m a bit uneasy around people who get up in the morning and plan for the possibility that they might need to kill someone. And frankly, I would be equally uneasy about such a person, even if I knew that they were not currently armed. You know what really terrifies me, though? Quoth **Projammer** : > [@](#): > > Pretty much as it appeared in the post. If it were to be commented upon, the conversation would be along the lined of, “Hey! Is that the new (iPhone/Glock)? What do you think of it? Is it really as good as they say it is?” In other words, it’s just an accessory. It’s absolutely terrifying for me to think that there are actually people out there who think of guns as “accessories”. A person who has that kind of attitude towards guns is not safe for society. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/56 "2008-11-26T02:25:48Z")
Seems like just another example of convervatives using the court system to thwart the wishes of the majority. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/57 "2008-11-26T04:24:25Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I carry a cell phone on my person because I might, at some point in the course of the day, have need to contact someone. A person who straps on a gun in the morning does so because they might, at some point in the course of the day, have need to kill someone. Personally, I’m a bit uneasy around people who get up in the morning and plan for the possibility that they might need to kill someone. And frankly, I would be equally uneasy about such a person, even if I knew that they were not currently armed. People hope for the best and prepare for the worst every day of their lives. That’s what the insurance industry is all about. Every time you get into your car you are prepared for the possibility that you will be involved in an event that you will need financial or legal assistance with. The same holds true for carrying a weapon. A person doesn’t go out of their house thinking, Gee, I’m going to get mugged/raped/murdered today. These things tend to get thrust upon them despite their best efforts to avoid it. Having some protection against those actions seems to me to be a good thing. > [@Chronos](#): > > You know what really terrifies me, though? Quoth **Projammer** : > > > [@](#): > > > > Pretty much as it appeared in the post. If it were to be commented upon, the conversation would be along the lined of, “Hey! Is that the new (iPhone/Glock)? What do you think of it? Is it really as good as they say it is?” In other words, it’s just an accessory. > > It’s absolutely terrifying for me to think that there are actually people out there who think of guns as “accessories”. A person who has that kind of attitude towards guns is not safe for society. You seem to have stopped reading that post before you got to the end. Let me fill that in for you. [QUOTE=Projammer] The arguments I have been countering are that people shouldn’t carry because guns are scary and make people uncomfortable. My response is that guns aren’t scary and shouldn’t be any more worthy of notice that a cell phone. **They must be handled responsibly and never taken for granted** , but there is no need for all the reactions here and histrionics elsewhere when the subject arises. [/QUOTE] Please don’t cherry-pick my comments to try to make a point. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/58 "2008-11-26T04:27:36Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Here That makes the thread title go from vaguely jerkish to totally hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/59 "2008-11-26T04:47:11Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > … Personally, I’m a bit uneasy around people who get up in the morning and plan for the possibility that they might need to kill someone. And frankly, I would be equally uneasy about such a person, even if I knew that they were not currently armed. What if they were actually preparing for the possibility that they may need to defend themselves, rather than planning on killing someone. Is that less scary? Because it is far closer to reality. > [@](#): > > You know what really terrifies me, though? Quoth **Projammer** :It’s absolutely terrifying for me to think that there are actually people out there who think of guns as “accessories”. A person who has that kind of attitude towards guns is not safe for society. I bet I would scare the ever living shit out of you. I neither fear guns nor cower in their presence. While I don’t consider my CCW rig a fashion statement, I also wouldn’t hesitate to ask a person who was carrying how they liked their holster, their gun, or what kind of ammo they use. Why do you have to project your own fears upon those of us who have no such limitations? Feel free to insert a penis reference at this point in the discussion. It’s about that time. Do cops open carrying give you the heebie jeebies too? Or is it ok if they are prepared to defend themselves? Maybe they wake up planning on killing someone everyday as well huh? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2008, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/60 "2008-11-26T05:27:10Z")
> [@](#): > > What if they were actually preparing for the possibility that they may need to defend themselves, rather than planning on killing someone. Is that less scary? Because it is far closer to reality. And a gun is somehow useful for self-defense in ways other than killing people? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391.md?page=4)