# Pistol-packing soccer mom's loss of carry permit causes her vagina to close up **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2008, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391 "2008-11-25T04:48:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/161 "2008-11-29T22:19:48Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Yep even back in the wild west days they knew that guns would cause more trouble and danger than they solve. Many **westerns** show the sheriff confiscating guns in the name of a civilized and safer town. We have a heritage of logic followed by the gun nutters sophistry of today. Everyone knows that Gunsmoke, Bonanza, and The Big Valley should be treated as documentaries of their respective time periods. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/162 "2008-11-29T22:22:45Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > … I appreciate your softening of your position, and I apologize for getting my hackles up: I’ve really been trying to be clear about my focus on this question of open carry… Same page now thanks. I’ve been working on my reading skills. I’m almost there! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/163 "2008-11-30T00:17:54Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Everyone knows that Gunsmoke, Bonanza, and The Big Valley should be treated as documentaries of their respective time periods. nov. 1881 ordinance 9 To provide against deadly weapons (eff date Apr 19,1881 Sect. 1 It is hereby declared unlawful for any person to carry deadly weapons within the city limits of Tombstone Ord. 7 Any establishment open to the public,house of prostitution or any other open to the public place ,it shall be the duty of any officer to enter such a place and at once arrest such person as he may find there engaged in such a breach. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/164 "2008-11-30T00:32:34Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > nov. 1881 > ordinance 9 > To provide against deadly weapons (eff date Apr 19,1881 > Sect. 1 It is hereby declared unlawful for any person to carry deadly weapons within the city limits of Tombstone > Ord. 7 > Any establishment open to the public,house of prostitution or any other open to the public place ,it shall be the duty of any officer to enter such a place and at once arrest such person as he may find there engaged in such a breach. Good to see that gun control worked so well even then. I forgot how safe a town Tombstone, AZ was until you reminded me. ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/165 "2008-11-30T02:58:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > the police provided inadequate protection The police have no responsibility to protect any individual citizen. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/166 "2008-11-30T07:53:31Z")
Too bad more of those WalMart shoppers weren’t armed. That would have been amusing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/167 "2008-11-30T13:56:01Z")
> [@1010011010](#): > > The police have no responsibility to protect any individual citizen. Also, they often dress in blue. And sometimes criminals call them “copper.” Is what you said somehow more relevant to a discussion of folks’ reaction to a perceived lawless society than what I said? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/168 "2008-11-30T14:09:17Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Good to see that gun control worked so well even then. I forgot how safe a town Tombstone, AZ was until you reminded me. At least they were able to face the problem and attempt to do something about it. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/169 "2008-11-30T14:38:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If I saw someone open carrying, I’d worry that they believed not only that they were in a lawless society (i.e., that the police provided inadequate protection), but also that they needed to ostentatiously display their Crazy Motherfuckerness in order to protect themselves. I’d worry that they were carrying openly (as opposed to carrying concealed) in order to send that message. I’d worry about the other lengths to which they might go in order to send that message. This. If you’re closing up the liquor store at 11:30pm, a pistol on your hip shows you to be a prudent individual who is aware of his/her surroundings. If you’re carrying to a preschooler’s soccer game in broad daylight, you either are unable to gauge the threat level appropriately, unable to gauge the appropriateness of this show of force, or you’re just plain crazy. Firearms are the level of force that is the most difficult to de-escalate. People get emotionally unhinged at childrens’ sports events sometimes. You can de-escalate from a shouting match or minor fisticuffs but not from being shot dead. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/170 "2008-11-30T15:26:29Z")
That’s the difference between you and me. I don’t care enough (i.e. at all) about sports to even get in a verbal argument about them, much less kill anybody over them. Clearly, you imagine yourself as easily doing so and assume that others must be the same. I believe much of the anti mindset is rooted in their own perceived lack of self-control. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/171 "2008-11-30T15:39:54Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > That’s the difference between you and me. I don’t care enough (i.e. at all) about sports to even get in a verbal argument about them, much less kill anybody over them. Clearly, you imagine yourself as easily doing so and assume that others must be the same. Um, no, I don’t imagine myself as easily doing so. I just happen to read these things call “newspapers”. Here’s one [cite](http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/ESPNSports/Story?id=1034449&page=1) from thousands of stories of sports rage that you have apparently missed over the past 10-20 years. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/172 "2008-11-30T15:48:22Z")
Taking you at your word, **Scumpup** , that you wouldn’t lose your cool over a kids’ game, you cannot assume that all gun-owners have an equally detached approach. Nor can you assume that no gun owner would refrain from hauling his/her weapon out in the heat of the moment. [Case in point:](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/11/05/ING05M4AHP1.DTL) > [@](#): > > Two weeks ago, my jaw dropped when I read that a father in Philadelphia had pulled a .357 Magnum on his son’s football coach, enraged that his son wasn’t getting enough playing time – in an Under-7 Pee Wee football game. > > [snip] > > Incidents of violent behavior by adults in youth sports have risen dramatically in the past five years – parents attacking coaches, officials and opposing team parents, and sometimes coaches lashing out at kids. > > [snip] > > Nationwide, incidents of violence among parents involved in youth sports quadrupled between 2000 and 2005, according to Fred Engh, founder and CEO of the National Alliance for Youth Sports. Barry Mano, president of the National Association of Sports Officials, told the Detroit News in January that his group documented 100 incidents of parents or fans physically assaulting youth sports coaches or officials in 2005. [Results of Google search on “parents violence children’s sports”](http://www.google.com/search?q=parents+violence+children%27s+sports&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) In July 2000 [one father beat another to death](http://archives.cnn.com/2002/LAW/01/25/hockey.death.verdict/index.html) in a fight at a youth hockey practice in Reading, Massachusetts. > [@](#): > > On July 5, 2000, Junta – a 6-foot-1, 270-pound truck driver – fought twice with Costin, who was 6 feet tall and weighed 156 pounds. > > The second fight proved fatal for Costin. The two men had argued over what Junta described as rough play during hockey drills that both men’s sons were participating in at the Burbank Ice Arena in Reading, Massachusetts. Do you seriously contend that no gun owner would ever become as enraged and out of control as Thomas Junta? Not one? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/173 "2008-11-30T18:06:06Z")
No gun owners? No, because I don’t know all gun owners. I do know this: as a group the gun owners I know are rather quiet, easy going people. They aren’t prone to angry confrontations over piddling matters. The people I know, on the other hand, who are prone to angry confrontations seem to operate under the belief that everybody is just like them e.g. if you jostled my elbow and spilled my drink it’s because you’re trying to start some shit, not because you accidentally bumped me. The anti insistance that every person carrying a gun is just one petty irritation away from being a murderer tells me which group they fall into. ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/174 "2008-11-30T21:13:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Is what you said somehow more relevant to a discussion of folks’ reaction to a perceived lawless society than what I said? Your comment was just the most recent example, several other posters had expressed a similar argument. I was commenting more on the idea that if the police are doing a good job keeping society relatively lawful, that it becomes irrational to retain responsibility for your own protection. The police are not responsible for protecting individual citizens, they protect society as a whole. If you abdicate responsibility for your own protection, no one is protecting you. Even assuming the police _do_ have an obligation to protect individuals, they cannot be everywhere at once. Thus the slogan “When seconds count, the police are only minutes away”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/175 "2008-11-30T21:20:20Z")
> [@1010011010](#): > > Your comment was just the most recent example, several other posters had expressed a similar argument. > > I was commenting more on the idea that if the police are doing a good job keeping society relatively lawful, that it becomes irrational to retain responsibility for your own protection. > > The police are not responsible for protecting individual citizens, they protect society as a whole. If you abdicate responsibility for your own protection, no one is protecting you. > > Even assuming the police _do_ have an obligation to protect individuals, they cannot be everywhere at once. Thus the slogan “When seconds count, the police are only minutes away”. I think you’re scanning my message to find something to which you have a boilerplate response. I’m not talking about what you’re talking about: I’m talking about the difference between 17th century Appalachia and Mayberry, the difference between West Baltimore (as depicted on that documentary show _The Wire_) and Beverly Hills. I’m talking about the difference in rational behavior between citizens of the two. THat has nothing to do with what the police’s obligations are concerning individuals vs. society. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/176 "2008-11-30T23:54:23Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > No gun owners? No, because I don’t know all gun owners. I do know this: as a group the gun owners I know are rather quiet, easy going people. They aren’t prone to angry confrontations over piddling matters. The people I know, on the other hand, who are prone to angry confrontations seem to operate under the belief that everybody is just like them e.g. if you jostled my elbow and spilled my drink it’s because you’re trying to start some shit, not because you accidentally bumped me. > The anti insistance that every person carrying a gun is just one petty irritation away from being a murderer tells me which group they fall into. Well, I don’t fall into the extreme stereotype you describe in your last sentence; I do, however, believe that the two sets you describe in your first paragraph are likely, given human nature, to have some overlap (such as the .357-brandisher noted in my first quotation). Therefore, I would find the overt presence of a gun at a children’s sporting event to be worrisome, though not to the point of irrational panic, which you appear to infer is the only possible state of those who find it objectionable. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/177 "2008-12-01T02:58:46Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > At least they were able to face the problem and attempt to do something about it. So regardless of the results, and attacks on affirmed rights, as long as someone is trying to do something, it’s all good in the end. Perhaps it’s time to bring out the cites for the fact that the 2nd Amendment didn’t cover handguns now? ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/178 "2008-12-01T03:59:26Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I think you’re scanning my message to find something to which you have a boilerplate response. You were quoted as the most recent example in the thread stating the “police protection” idea as a replacement for individual self-defense. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m not talking about what you’re talking about: I’m talking about the difference between 17th century Appalachia and Mayberry, the difference between West Baltimore (as depicted on that documentary show _The Wire_) and Beverly Hills. I’m talking about the difference in rational behavior between citizens of the two. That has nothing to do with what the police’s obligations are concerning individuals vs. society. Whether you’re in 17th century Appalachia, Mayberry, West Baltimore, or Beverly Hills when you are being robbed, mugged, raped, or murdered, the police are not there to protect you. It may be comforting to think to yourself “I’ll be the only violent crime statistic this month. The police around here do such a good job.” but I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/179 "2008-12-01T04:07:31Z")
> [@1010011010](#): > > It may be comforting to think to yourself “I’ll be the only violent crime statistic this month. The police around here do such a good job.” but I doubt it. I take comfort from the fact that no one will steal my gun to commit a crime, I won’t shoot anyone(or myself) cleaning it, no kid will pick it up and blow away his sibling or playmate, I won’t accidentally shoot someone trick or treating, I won’t use it against another driver in a fit of road rage, and I won’t be tempted to use it on myself in a time of despair. I balance that off against the need to blow away the next ref who makes a bad call at a soccer match. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391/180 "2008-12-01T04:15:07Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I take comfort from the fact that no one will steal my gun to commit a crime, I won’t shoot anyone(or myself) cleaning it, no kid will pick it up and blow away his sibling or playmate, I won’t accidentally shoot someone trick or treating, I won’t use it against another driver in a fit of road rage, and I won’t be tempted to use it on myself in a time of despair. I take comfort in these things too, and I have a safe full of guns. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pistol-packing-soccer-moms-loss-of-carry-permit-causes-her-vagina-to-close-up/474391.md?page=10)