# Pit Bulls. Again and Again and Again...... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 2, 2007, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-again-and-again-and-again/386414 "2007-01-02T15:02:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-again-and-again-and-again/386414/281 "2007-01-05T00:47:40Z")
Possibility, rather. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-again-and-again-and-again/386414/282 "2007-01-05T00:48:14Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] As a disinterested observer, I sumbit that 22 pounds is the weight of a puppy. [/QUOTE] Wondering if the next “disinterested observer” will tell us how common 700lb pitbulls are in his neighborhood.. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-again-and-again-and-again/386414/283 "2007-01-05T00:54:19Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] I have no idea why you insist on the ‘show dog’ delineation. Can you elaborate? Can you provide another example of a breed standard where the upper limit is nearly 500% of the lower? [/QUOTE] I’m not insisting on it, that’s what you’re citing to: the UKC pit bull breed standard used for judging at UKC events, i.e. dog shows. It’s a list of desirable characteristics and faults to judge a dog on, and disqualifications from competition. It’s a description of what they’re looking for in an ideal specimen, not a generalized description of the breed for public information. The breeding standard includes things that have nothing to do with genetics, like “bobbed tail” as a disqualification. That’s a disqualification from competition; they’re not claiming that if the dog’s tail is bobbed it ceases to be a pit bull. The section on “weight” reads: > [@](#): > > The American Pit Bull Terrier must be both powerful and agile so actual weight and height are less important than the correct proportion of weight to height. Desirable weight for a mature male in good condition is between 35 and 60 pounds. Desirable weight for a mature female in good condition is between 30 and 50 pounds. Dogs over these weights are not to be penalized unless they are disproportionately massive or rangy. 35 to 60 pounds is the desirable weight when a evaluating a dog in competition, not the lower and upper limits of possibility. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-again-and-again-and-again/386414/284 "2007-01-05T01:02:43Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Sound to me that if a dog strays that far off from his breed standards, odds are better than good it’s not a purebreed. [/QUOTE] Like I said, there’s a very good chance that a pit that size has some mastiff in him, but very large purebreds are possible: > [@](#): > > Like all purpose bred dogs, the purebred pit bull can come in a variety of colors, sizes and builds. Some strains show a touch more terrier infusion; thin and racy, with narrow heads, they may weigh as little as 25 pounds. Others are small, but very stocky, showing a clear connection with the smaller, stockier strain known today as Staffordshire bull terriers. And there have always been large, more bullmastiff orientated strains. Some of these dogs can, in a pure state, reach into the nineties in weight. [http://www.workingpitbull.com/aboutpits2.htm](http://www.workingpitbull.com/aboutpits2.htm) > [@](#): > > Height: 18-22 inches (46-56 cm) > Weight: 22 -110 pounds (10-50 kg) > Please Note: The APBT ranges in size from 22 pounds to 110 pounds (rare), with the most common being between 35 - 55 pounds (16-25 kg.), in fact the original APBT’s were between 20 - 40 pounds (9-18 kg.) and were bred small for their main purpose, fighting, These dogs are varying from small to extra large. A very common misconception is that APBT’s are muscle bound (viscous) hulks that weigh in around 85 pounds (39 kg.) and this is generally not the majority, Most of the APBT’s that Are that large have been crossed with another breeds. > **[American Pit Bull Terrier Dog Breed Information and Pictures](http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/americanpitbull.htm)** > > American Pit Bull Terrier Dog breed information, pictures, care, temperament, health, breed history, puppies. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-again-and-again-and-again/386414/285 "2007-01-05T01:16:44Z")
While I’m thnking about it: [QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Can you provide another example of a breed standard where the upper limit is nearly 500% of the lower? [/QUOTE] Poodles. Toys around 6-8 pounds, standards up to 70 pounds. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-again-and-again-and-again/386414/286 "2007-01-05T01:42:31Z")
In another example of life imitating art, a pit bull attacked a neighbor’s dog in my building’s elevator yesterday, delivering a nontrivial puncture wound to the smaller dog’s neck. When a neighbor tried to intervene, the pit bull let go of the other dog and bit the hell out of her hand. A police report was filed by law when she was treated at the hospital, so now the city authorities are involved. I am on the co-op board in my building. We may have no choice but to insist that our friend and neighbor have his pit bull put down. He is an excellent dog owner, but the dog he adopted had a history of abuse and he had invested a great deal of time and energy trying to socialize it. This is not a conversation I am looking forward to. ---
**Author:** ![knowbsl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9fc29f/32.png) [@knowbsl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/knowbsl)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-again-and-again-and-again/386414/287 "2007-01-05T04:55:50Z")
[QUOTE=BMax] The AKC never recognized “pit bull” as a legitimate breed due to the dogfighting stigma. Dog fighters, wanting to register their dogs and keep track of the pedigrees, formed the ADBA, which functioned as a pit bull registry only for many years. The ADBA created the American Staffordshire Terrier breed for Pete the pup since he was probably the most popular movie dog at the time after Rin Tin Tin and Strongheart (both GSDs) and opened their stud books. Very few dogfighters cared about dog shows and fighting dogs don’t often have the temperment necessary for shows so not many pits were registered with the AKC. The UKC was created later for working dogs & field trials & agility competitions [/QUOTE] WRONG! The UKC is the first and original founding registry to register American Pit Bull Terriers. In 1898, Chauncy Bennet formed the UKC, a breed registry aimed solely at the registration and acceptance of pitbulls. The AKC had wanted nothing to do with pitbulls, so Bennet sought to create an organization that would represent the breed as performance dogs. Mr. Bennet added “American” and initially dropped “Pit” from the APBT’s name but public outcry let to “Pit” being added back to the name - thus the American Pit Bull Terrier. For a pitbull to be accepted into the UKC the dog had to have won three fights - a requirement that was later dropped. Another registry that was started solely for APBT’s, the American Dog Breeders Association was born in 1909. The ADBA was started by Guy McCord who was a close friend of one of the founding fathers of the modern APBT, John P. Colby. The ADBA was created to test the performance quality of a APBT without actual pit fighting; the ADBA’s main focus was on weight pulling competitions with a spattering of conformation shows. In 1936 the AKC decided to register Pit Bulls but under a different name - the Staffordshire Terrier, which was later changed to the American Staffordshire Terrier in 1972, or AST. Up until 1936, Pit Bulls and AST’s were physically identical. After 1936, AST’s were bred solely for conformation and their breed requirements became much more stringent. APBT’s were being bred for both performance (fighting) as well as conformation shows and the breed’s standard became much more lenient. The AST’s, phenotypically, became “flashier” with blockier heads, larger chests and a thicker jaw while the APBT’s varied phenotypically from lanky to stocky. Although the phenotypic expression varied in the APBT, relative weight, size and proportion remained constant and dogs over 60lbs were rarely seen. Both AST’s and APBT’s were bred to be exceptionally sturdy and extremely human friendly, not to mention athletic, courageous, and tenacious. ---
**Author:** ![knowbsl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9fc29f/32.png) [@knowbsl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/knowbsl)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-again-and-again-and-again/386414/288 "2007-01-05T05:01:03Z")
“The ADBA created the American Staffordshire Terrier breed for Pete…” THE ADBA DID NOT CREATE THE AMERICAN STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIER aka AmStaff. IT WAS THE AKC, AND NOT FOR PETE! ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-again-and-again-and-again/386414/289 "2007-01-05T09:51:06Z")
[QUOTE=pravnik] While I’m thnking about it: Poodles. Toys around 6-8 pounds, standards up to 70 pounds. [/QUOTE] Well that’s two breeds, now isn’t it? But if you think that a Toy Poodle can weigh 70 pounds, I suppose anything can weigh just about anything. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-again-and-again-and-again/386414/290 "2007-01-05T15:54:30Z")
[QUOTE=Maeglin] I am on the co-op board in my building. We may have no choice but to insist that our friend and neighbor have his pit bull put down. He is an excellent dog owner, but the dog he adopted had a history of abuse and he had invested a great deal of time and energy trying to socialize it. This is not a conversation I am looking forward to. [/QUOTE] Can’t you simply insist that he rid himself of the dog. Or will only a corpse satisfy you? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-again-and-again-and-again/386414/291 "2007-01-05T16:35:45Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Can’t you simply insist that he rid himself of the dog. Or will only a corpse satisfy you? [/QUOTE] Back up, read what I actually, said, and watch your fucking tone. Personally, I would prefer neither outcome. I have no small children, and I fail to see the clear and present danger this dog allegedly presents to them. I think that as responsibile dog owners, they should be given the chance to continue to rehabilitate this dog. He should wear a muzzle at all times in the building, and certainly other corrective measures can be taken to ensure that the other dogs in my building are safe. The problem is that once a police report was filed, the dog’s fate is in the hands of the local authorities, not the board. In order to comply with the city, we _may_ have no choice but to have the dog put down. I fervently hope it does not come to this. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-again-and-again-and-again/386414/292 "2007-01-05T16:48:04Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Well that’s two breeds, now isn’t it? But if you think that a Toy Poodle can weigh 70 pounds, I suppose anything can weigh just about anything. [/QUOTE] Nope, one breed, two varieties. The [AKC poodle breed standard](http://www.akc.org/breeds/poodle/index.cfm) lists standard, miniature, and toy poodles as three varieties of one breed. Toy poodles aren’t the result of cross-breeding with smaller breeds, they were bred down from the standard poodle by breeders selecting for diminutiveness. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-again-and-again-and-again/386414/293 "2007-01-05T16:51:59Z")
I have been to many AKC dog shows. My neighbor had a pit bull. I know what they look like and every bad incident I have had in the park has been pit bulls. The mystique of the breed ,that it is a vicious killer and can not be stopped once started, appeals to some sickos. They get them for the wrong reasons. In Detroit they train their pits to fight. They even toss in smaller dogs and rabbits to get them used to tearing something living apart. If a pit in Detroit gets loose ,it is serious and much bad press results. I feel if I had a pit from puppyhood ,it would not be like that. I would not raise it that way. But many do. ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-again-and-again-and-again/386414/294 "2007-01-05T17:01:54Z")
Great post, **blackhobyah**. Thanks for the info. P.S. **redtail23** , I poured a little whiskey at the crossroads for \*\*Gaudere \*\* in your name. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BMax](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bmax/32/4267_2.png) [@BMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMax)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-again-and-again-and-again/386414/295 "2007-01-05T18:09:58Z")
[QUOTE=knowbsl] “The ADBA created the American Staffordshire Terrier breed for Pete…” THE ADBA DID NOT CREATE THE AMERICAN STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIER aka AmStaff. IT WAS THE AKC, AND NOT FOR PETE! [/QUOTE] Thanks, it was the AKC. That was mostly a typo due to posting from work. I haven’t read on the history of the breed since I did research before I got my dog, so I didn’t include dates. My main focus in the whole pitbull debate is to give the perspective of someone who actually lives with [a](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/bmax/Catch.jpg) [pit](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/bmax/GENGHISROOF18.jpg) [bull](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/bmax/Genghisbars13.jpg). Sometimes I make mistakes when I post from work. Oh, and BTW, YOU DONT HAVE TO TYPE LIKE AN AOL LUSER. It’s not going to make you any friends on this board. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-again-and-again-and-again/386414/296 "2007-01-06T00:03:35Z")
[QUOTE=Maeglin] Back up, read what I actually, said, and watch your fucking tone. [/QUOTE] I’ll do you one better. I’ll quote it for you. \*I am on the co-op board in my building. We may have no choice but to insist that our friend and neighbor have his pit bull put down. \* Now unless you are talking about the toy poodle in your pocket, “We” must refer to the co-op board. Right? > [@](#): > > The problem is that once a police report was filed, the dog’s fate is in the hands of the local authorities, not the board. In order to comply with the city, we _may_ have no choice but to have the dog put down. Well, which is it, the board or the police? Is the board an arm of the police? Where are these police lurking in your other post? Shove your tone up your ass. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-again-and-again-and-again/386414/297 "2007-01-06T01:40:34Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Has it really come to this? Now that the superior jaw strength of Pits has been debunked, and the extra viciousness of Pits has been debunked, and the request for headlines r.e Goldens has been answered, you hang your hat on whether there is a difference between ‘baseline temperament’ and ‘temperament?’ If it will move things along, even though the two terms are your own, and in my mind, should not need to be explained to you, I will stipulate that they mean the same thing. Or don’t. Whichever you prefer. [/QUOTE] Man, you really are an asshole. YOU made the distinction. I was simply asking what you thought the distinction was before proceeding. And you think these headlines with Goldens proves what exactly? That any dog can flip out? Great, now just show me where I claimed the opposite. And although someone was able to search and find a total of 7 headlines which go back to 2000, did you notice what that they _didn’t_ mention? Come on, think now. It may hurt, but give it a go. Give up? Okay, what’s missing is them KILLING anyone. Or attempting to rip their throats out. Never mind that one incident happned after a four-year-old jumped on the dog. That tends to support (not prove) my assertion that Pits have a differetn baseline tempermant and often get more viscious than dogs like goldens. Regarding the bite force of pit bulls, I searched the web and the numbers are all over the place. One article went as far as to pu the bite of a Pit Bull at over 2000psi, with a a Bull Terrier at 1200psi, and a Rottweiler’s bite coming in at wimpy 800psi. The one thing that most every site _did_ agree on is that bite force is very difficult to ascertain. You think my position is untenable? Let’s review, yet again. My position is and has been that it is the fault of the owner AND the dog. Yours is that it is the owner, NOT the dog. Do you still stand by that assertion? If so, you are in the minority, even in this thread. Also, **pravnik** corrected you for making the same error I corrected you on: namely, that you keep confusing formal designations from official sanctioning bodies with the real world. Hopefully two different people pointing this out to you will disabuse you of this ignorant, if not dishonest, practice. Finally, I’ll just weigh in on this because it’s so blatant. Your “corpse” line to **Maeglin** was way out of line. It seems that you misread his post, which you are wont to do and as is evidenced from the other Pit thread entitled “ **Tamerlane** ”. Then, when called on it you turn into an even bigger ass, intimating some inconsistency in his reponses when there is none. Maybe it’s your poor reading again. Maybe it’s just that you’re a dick. Maybe both. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-again-and-again-and-again/386414/298 "2007-01-06T01:54:16Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Finally, I’ll just weigh in on this because it’s so blatant. Your “corpse” line to **Maeglin** was way out of line. It seems that you misread his post, which you are wont to do and as is evidenced from the other Pit thread entitled “ **Tamerlane** ”. Then, when called on it you turn into an even bigger ass, intimating some inconsistency in his reponses when there is none. Maybe it’s your poor reading again. Maybe it’s just that you’re a dick. Maybe both. [/QUOTE] Show me, in his post, where options other than euthanization were considered. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-again-and-again-and-again/386414/299 "2007-01-06T02:05:11Z")
Sorry, hit the wrong button. **Magellan** , I will try to explain this to you once more, and then wash my hands of you. Regardless of any physiological, phsychological, temperamental, or what-have-you characteristics of any breed of dog, the responsibility for good canine behavior lies with the owner. Totally. Dogs exist outside the real of blame. _ **Nothing is ever the fault of the dog** _. I have outlined what constitutes proper dog ownership. I noted four rules. And if an owner is to much of a slack-ass to handle that, following rule #4 is sufficient to insure that\*\* _no dog ever attacks a human being_.\*\* Bias against a particular breed of dog, based on the behavior of the owner, is ignorant. Continued bias, in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, is stupid. Pick your poison. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2007, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-again-and-again-and-again/386414/300 "2007-01-06T02:14:45Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Show me, in his post, where options other than euthanization were considered. [/QUOTE] First, his original claim. The one that spurred the dickish response from you: > [@](#): > > We **may** have no choice but to insist that our friend and neighbor have his pit bull put down. He is an excellent dog owner, but the dog he adopted had a history of abuse and he had invested a great deal of time and energy trying to socialize it. This is not a conversation I am looking forward to. Notice the word “may”. I highlighted it for you. It does not list what those other option might be, only that there is some other possible outcome. And look at the totality of this paragraph. In context, which you left out of your last post about this, do you think that the extra words makes him appear more blood thirsty or less? And then his clarifying response to you: > [@](#): > > The problem is that once a police report was filed, the dog’s fate is in the hands of the local authorities, not the board. In order to comply with the city, we _may_ have no choice but to have the dog put down. I fervently hope it does not come to this. Look for the same word. _He_ even put it in italics. You know, as in “this is one possible outcome, but there are others”. It’s really quite mind boggling how after you jumped his shit about the first quote—which I found perfectly clear—and he explained it to you fully and politely, that you responded the way you did. And again, look at the context, which, again, you conveniently left out when quoting him. Does it not make his position perfectly clear? Does it not expand on his original statment, providing more information for the readiing comprehension challenged? Not that you would be the best person to make that determination. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-again-and-again-and-again/386414.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-again-and-again-and-again/386414.md?page=16)