[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
Saying that two dogs do not have identical temperaments is not the same as saying they have the same baseline temperament. I’ll stop here. When we clear this up, we can proceed.
[/QUOTE]
Well, please explain what you think the difference is. Of course, we are not talking about individual dogs, but different breeds.
[QUOTE=magellan01]
And in the same paragraph you say "Dogs of the same size and build can cause the same “mayhem.” If so, you don’t think that musculature plays any role? How the weight is distributed? Interesting. Are you also aware that the pit bull has a larger head, mouth, and jaw muscles than either a golden or a shepherd of equal size?
[/QUOTE]
Most people use the word “build” to describe musculature, how the weight is distributed, the size of the head, mouth and jaw muscles. So, with the odd exception, a golden or shepherd would simply not be of “the same size and build” as a pit bull. (I did know one ugly ass golden once (with papers) who had a head almost as chunky, but he was weird. Mean as a dry drunk, too.)
But there are lots of other non-pitbill breeds that might be of a similar build.
[QUOTE=RedFury]
Yep, no doubt we’ve both got that gansta’ thing down pat. Besides, I always knew she was going to be a mean one. 
Kidding aside, tell your JR girl that I’ll get her her own plastic chicken leg – with the built-in, annoying-as-hell-whistle, too.
jgodess,
In some ways, the whole cropping issue is part of the ongoing debate. There were originally legitimate reasons (hunting, herding, and yes, fighting) why many breeds would get mutilated that way. Some countries in Europe have already banned the practice and hopefully, many others will soon follow.
Thing is, IMO, all it does it make the dogs look meaner (especially Dobies I think – something evil-looking about that cropped look). Then again, perhaps that IS the point and the attraction of the mutilation. But yeah, I do think they make great pets/companions. All of them really. I’m just weak for Dobies. And yes, reds are gorgeous as well.
[/QUOTE]
HOT DAMN what a beautiful dog! And this from a cat person (who really likes dogs and speaks fluent Canine but wouldn’t own one for a number of reasons).
The cropping I also believe has a lot to do with how tough a dog appears, at least in the short-haired breeds. Great Danes, for example, with those triangular sails of ears look way scarier than an uncropped one, like the big black beauty of a girl belonging to a good friend’s daughter. Which dog is, by the way, an adoring/adorable mountain o’ mush who’s about as kidsafe as they come. With uncropped ears, GDs and Dobies and such look like easy-going hound dogs, don’t they?
If Dobermans had never been cropped, I wonder – would they have developed their scary reputation to begin with?
[tangent]
My sister owned a Border Collie bitch, strictly as a pet. Lovely dog, but mega-high energy and fanatical about any game you played with her – she wanted to be DOING. The high point of her life was when she got out of her run and into the neighbor’s pasture, and gleefully rounded up his sheep, penning them in a corner of the fence line till my sister dragged her home.
[/tangent]
[QUOTE=WhyNot]
But there are lots of other non-pitbill breeds that might be of a similar build.
[/QUOTE]
Ha! I got it in one try.
[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Most people use the word “build” to describe musculature, how the weight is distributed, the size of the head, mouth and jaw muscles. So, with the odd exception, a golden or shepherd would simply not be of “the same size and build” as a pit bull. (I did know one ugly ass golden once (with papers) who had a head almost as chunky, but he was weird. Mean as a dry drunk, too.)
[/QUOTE]
Kind of you to help, but she explicity stated why she used added the word “build”. No doubt she will attempt to use your post now as cover and explain whay her previously explanation was not really her explanation. Fine, let her keep digging. Her own words will still sink her and show her to be nothing but a dumb brassy bitch.
[QUOTE=magellan01]
Kind of you to help, but she explicity stated why she used added the word “build”.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I did. And you still can’t grasp it.
It’s as if there is a train track of stupidity, and you’re the train.
[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
Yeah, I did. And you still can’t grasp it.
It’s as if there is a train track of stupidity, and you’re the train.
[/QUOTE]
Hahahahaha. I gotta give it to you, you’re powerful dumbfuck, but you’re consistent. Bless your heart.
[QUOTE=magellan]
you’re powerful dumbfuck
[/QUOTE]
You heap good writer.
It is the owner. However people like that seem to favor pit bulls. We should screen owners.
[QUOTE=Wile E]
Well, at least no one mentioned “Rock Wilders”.
[/QUOTE]
That’s because they’re “Rock Welders” around here. Cracks me up.
I volunteer at the SPCA and a LOT of the dogs there are pit bull or pit bull mixes. Their owners were obviously idiots who didn’t care about them, got them for looks, bad rep, or fighting, then lost them and didn’t bother to look for them. To a dog, they lack socialization, so I feel like the behaviors we see with them is indicative of how pit bulls behave by default, without proper training.
They love people. They want to be loved. They desperately want to bond with someone. However, you have to tell them who’s boss, because they damn near all are physically aggressive-- NOT hostile, per se, but aggressive, either mouthy or jump on you or play really hardcore, or something like that, because they don’t know any better. This is off-putting, and should be. If you don’t know how to handle this, you should not adopt one. They are also very often dog and cat aggressive and once they have that problem into adulthood, I have heard and found it’s hard to train out unless you’re an experienced and dedicated dog owner.
I am not in favor of breed banning. I agree it’s the owner, not the breed. I personally find pit bulls so cute and loving and have all the basic building blocks of wonderful pets. HOWEVER, they are attractive to idiots who mistreat or neglect them, so their tendencies are unchecked and they wind up in trouble.
The quintessential pit bull story, 100% true: a pit bull I worked with at the shelter randomly, out of the blue, showed up at my house, twice. TWICE. He had severe border anxiety and would press his tongue up against the glass door of his cell at the shelter, drooling continuously. The first time I saw him, I thought someone had spilled a bucket of soapy water in his room-- it was pouring out from under the door. Intensely gross. He was originally owned by people who couldn’t spend enough time with him, and he got separation anxiety. He was incredibly strong though small, and broke out of their house to run wild in the street. They gave him up to the shelter.
This dog, Petey, was so sweet. He’d always sit in my lap and nuzzle my ear. I wanted to adopt him but he was intensely dog aggressive, and probably cat aggressive, so that was out.
One day, I was outside and I saw him in my yard. WTF? The shelter is about 5 miles away. He had broken the crate of his foster home AND the door of their house, crossed a highway, and come over. I recognized that face and brought him back to the shelter.
Two days later, I’m out with my dog, and suddenly I hear that horrendous sound of dogs fighting. Sasha, my dog, comes running up the lawn, and there’s Petey hard on her heels. Seemed like he was trying to, um, get to know her, in the Biblical sense. She (all 85 pounds of her) was not having it. They ran into my porch and fought there in front of me, to my fucking illimitible horror. I foolishly jumped between them, grabbed Petey’s collar, let Sasha in the house. Immediately, Petey stopped being aggressive. While I called the dog officer, Petey drooled on the outside of my porch door, then sat in my lap on the porch, kissing me, until the officer arrived. Sasha was somehow uninjured, probably because Petey never really intended to harm her.
I didn’t even know what to think, except POOR BASTARD. And damn whoever owned him before, because that was a wonderful dog screwed over by no training and thus highly unadoptable behavior. Imagine if it wasn’t me whose dog he attacked but someone with a gun…
Dogs like this give pits their reputation for being loose cannons. Yes, laws about dog breeding training are the answer, but there seem to be so many damaged dogs out there and so few people willing and able to help them. This is why people want them banned. I’m not saying I agree, but I understand where they’re coming from. No?
The happy ending to this story is that Petey finally did get adopted. I was so happy for him.
[QUOTE=magellan01]
Now, regarding your position that the size and build of the dog are the sole determinants of the degree of “mayhem” it is able to inflict: Do you really believe that a golden or a shepherd can inflict more damage than a pit? After all, you say they are bigger, and the shepherd is quite muscular. And in the same paragraph you say "Dogs of the same size and build can cause the same “mayhem.” If so, you don’t think that musculature plays any role? How the weight is distributed? Interesting. Are you also aware that the pit bull has a larger head, mouth, and jaw muscles than either a golden or a shepherd of equal size? And most of the “mayhem” we’ve been talking about dogs inflicting is done with that apparatus? Again, interesting
[/QUOTE]
http://www.vancourier.com/issues06/023106/news/023106nn1.html
I’ve found multiple cites that a National Geographic show (Dangerous Encounters: Bite Force) measured a pit, German Shepherd, and Rottie, and found the pit to have the lowest bite force. I’m still looking for an actual cite from NatGeo - any Google-fu masters out there wanna help?
At any rate, I’m thinking that 300 to 750 lbs of pressure is gonna do plenty of damage. After a certain point, it doesn’t matter much anymore, eh?
Really, magellan01 we’ve provided multiple citations showing that pit bulls are not any stronger, more vicious, or anything else that you’ve claimed.
Where are your cites making your case?
[QUOTE=Caridwen]
I just posted the links for information purposes. As far as I could tell the sites showed no real bias. One was from the CDC and the other seemed to be from an insurance company.
To be honest, I’m really conflicted. I think some breeds have the potential to be more aggressive without proper training.
[/quote]
Ah, OK, then, gotcha. Yes, it is troubling. Some breeds are more aggressive without proper training and socialization, absolutely true. Pit bulls are one, but ONLY one, of those many breeds. Which is why I’m opposed to breed-specific bans, and all for requiring owners to be responsible.
Most vets I’ve known dread Chows more than anything, much worse than pits. Unfortunately, they’re absolutely adorable as pups.
How can breed-specific bans/restrictions work, when evidence shows that most people can’t identify dog breeds, and even experts can’t identify them absolutely? Simply destroy all dogs that remotely resemble pit bulls, regardless of their actual breeding, temperament, or training/socialization? That’s pretty much what a number of those locations have done.
Absolutely. I’ve known a few people who were bitten as children and were terrified of large dogs. They were truly fortunate not to have ended up disfigured or worse. Although one of them, after spending time with our mutt, got her own dog and is working very hard to learn how to handle her properly.
[snide aside]Hey, Beadalin, I can spell vicious correctly too, doncha know![/aside]
Well, a local little old lady was attacked by some “pit bulls” while walking her dog. She was rescued but she had been bitten 62 times and had a finger chewed off. Her little dog was unharmed. They showed the dogs on the news, they look nothing alike. They both look like mutts and neither look much like pit bulls but the news kept calling them pit bulls so as far as everyone is concerned they’re pit bulls because everyone knows them dogs is dangerous and are the only type dogs that ever attack people. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=magellan01]
Are you also aware that the pit bull has a larger head, mouth, and jaw muscles than either a golden or a shepherd of equal size? And most of the “mayhem” we’ve been talking about dogs inflicting is done with that apparatus?
[/QUOTE]
Larger head?
Labrador Retriever head, av. length 21 cm
German Shepherd head av. length 20 cm
Pit Bull head av. head av. length 19cm
Australian Shepherd head av. length 18cm
English Bulldog head av. length 17cm
Source: http://www.skullsunlimited.com/
I realise there’s more to the size of the head than length, but none of the breed standards offer a range in head width, so there doesn’t seem to be any hard information about this. If you’ve got the stats it would be good to see them.
Here is some information about comparative bite strengths of domestic dogs, which might be of interest.
A test done with a bite sleeve on National Geographic program Dangerous Encounters: Bite Force. 8pm est 8/18/2005
The researcher use a bite sleeve and tested a range of bite pressures, including a human, domestic dogs and wild animals . The dogs tested were the German Shepherd, the Pit Bull and the Rottweiler. The average bite force for domestic dogs was 320 lbs of pressure, with the Pit scoring the lowest of the three dogs."
Here are some more references:
Dr L Brisbin’s (1989) “Mechanical Advantage in the ‘Pit Bull’ Jaw’” Proceedings of the South Carolina Academy of Science.
This scientific investigation proved that there is not only no superior strength to the jaw when compared with other breeds and mixed breeds but that there is absolutely no evidence of a ‘locking’ mechanism.
**
Collier, S. The pit bull terrier: a dangerous or a defamed breed?*
“Dalzell’s anatomical investigations found that APBTs do not have greater jaw muscle mass than German Shepherds with similar sized skulls.28 The masseter muscle is the major jaw muscle concerned, and this attaches to the rear of the jaw and along the top of the side of the skull. Mammals with very large masseter muscles usually have insufficient cranial area to which the masseter can attach, so a crest of bone (the sagittal crest) is developed along the top of the skull. German Shepherds have such a crest, but APBTs do not. This means the shepherd masseter muscle is long, while the APBT masseter, attaching lower on the skull, bunches up and bulges, giving an impression of great development. In fact, the muscle volumes are similar, and there is no anatomical indication that the APBT should bite any harder than another dog of equivalent size.”
**
D. Lindner et al, (1995) “Measurement of Bite Force in Dogs: a Pilot Study” Journal of Veterinary Dentology**
Abs. A force transducer was developed to measure bite force in dogs. A total of 101 readings was obtained from 22 pet dogs ranging in size from 7 to 55 kg. Bite forces ranged from 13 to 1394 Newtons with a mean for all dogs of 256 Newtons and a median of 163 Newtons. Most measurements fell within the low end of the range, with 55% of the biting episodes less than 200 Newtons and 77% less than 400 Newtons.
This article might also be of interest.
Johann, T. (2000) Dissertation. Assessment of the behaviour of Golden Retrievers in comparison to the behaviour of dogs considered dangerous.
Abs. "In this study 70 dogs of the Golden Retriever breed were evaluated according to the Guidelines of the Dangerous Animals Act of Niedersachsen, Germany (GefTVO) of 5th of July 2000 starting 17.01.2003 throughout 18.11.2003. The dogs served as a comparison group to the 415 dogs, affected by the law, which were tested by MITTMANN (2002).
Therefore, according to the Guidelines of the behaviour-test 69 dogs (98,6%) reacted appropriately throughout the test situations, and merely one dog (1,4%) showed inadequate aggressive behaviour. In the study of MITTMANN (2002) 395 dogs (95%) reacted appropriately, 19 dogs (4,6%) showed inadequate aggressive behaviour and one dog (0,2%) showed disturbed aggressive behaviour. Comparing the MITTMANN (2002) group and the comparison group no significant difference in the frequency of inadequate aggressive behaviour could be observed."
Source: The original research is in German:
http://deposit.ddb.de/cgi-bin/dokserv?idn=973952369&dok_nam=abstract&dok_ext=htm&filename=973952369.htm
[QUOTE=redtail23]
You know, Malacandra, I’d forgotten what an ass you can be. Although I must admit that the first 3 lines of your post were absolutely spot-on. Sorry that I confused your insistent whining about how terribly scary pitbulls are with the almost identical whinging of the breed-ban crowd. And you might remember that not only is the word “you” in English is both singular and plural, but that this interaction is happening on an international message board - you’re not the only one in the discussion and not every line of every post is directed solely to you. Even if your name was mentioned earlier. Y’all come back now, hear?
[/QUOTE]
You know, redtail23, I was fortunate to have no preconceptions about you at all, since I can’t remember you saying anything worthwhile on any subject whatever. Sorry if I appear to have been insistently whining about pitbulls - in fact I’ve been making the general, non-breed-specific point that dogs that are big and strong enough to kill small children shouldn’t be the first choice for household pets. You can make exceptions for people who know how to look after them if you like. My niece was safe in the same stall as a cranky uncut stallion. I wouldn’t have been. I know the difference. But in general it’s probably a bad idea for people to keep big strong bred-for-fighting dogs in the same house as small children.
Now I guess it’s time for me to apologise for thinking that when you quote some text of mine and address me by name, you’re talking to me. Silly me, huh? 
[QUOTE=Malacandra]
Sorry if I appear to have been insistently whining about pitbulls - in fact I’ve been making the general, non-breed-specific point that dogs that are big and strong enough to kill small children shouldn’t be the first choice for household pets.
[/QUOTE]
Beagles are big and strong enough to kill small children. So are Corgis, Basenjis, Golden Retrievers, Standard Poodles, … I daresay one of my Jacks at around 13 -16 pounds could kill a small child easily. When Jacks kill they go for the throat or the back of the neck, clamp on and shake back and forth with blurring speed. Should we limit household pets to Teacup Chihuahuas?
[QUOTE=magellan01]
Hahahahaha. I gotta give it to you, you’re powerful dumbfuck, but you’re consistent. Bless your heart.
[/QUOTE]
Do you actually try to be an idiot?
There is one detail in the article linked by the OP that may be bad writing buuuut…
Reading it, it seems to me that the kid and the dog were in one room, out of sight of any adults.
Having seen one of my cousins, then 6yo, try to pull off a German Shepherd’s dick (the family is still surprised to have the cousin around)… having seen children try to poke a dog’s eyes both with their fingers and with pointed instruments… well, how would YOU react if someone tried to poke your eye or rip off your dick? I’m not saying this is what happened in the case listed, but I am saying that the kids’ relatives were irresponsible.
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
Beagles are big and strong enough to kill small children. So are Corgis, Basenjis, Golden Retrievers, Standard Poodles, … I daresay one of my Jacks at around 13 -16 pounds could kill a small child easily. When Jacks kill they go for the throat or the back of the neck, clamp on and shake back and forth with blurring speed. Should we limit household pets to Teacup Chihuahuas?
[/QUOTE]
Basenjis can kill children? In that case I’d be through there as soon as I heard it bark. :eek:
Yes, I know.
As to restricting - I believe all I’ve done so far in this thread is to suggest that certain dog owners ought to restrict themselves. Unfortunately it’s rather laid me open to the crowd who like to go “You know, my 24oz Mongolian tripe-hound could kill a premature baby if it got into the incubator, so I don’t know why you’re making all the fuss about a Siberian husky/timber wolf cross!”. It’s all very puzzling.
