# Pit Bulls (continued) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 8, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714 "2013-10-08T19:18:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/241 "2013-12-03T14:12:19Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Because they enhance the quality of our lives in a thousand ways, large and small. Because they ARE part of our pack and there is a school of thought that without them we would still be hunting and gathering. Because for every dog that seriously hurts someone without provocation, there are millions of dogs imparting joy, increasing peace, happiness and lifespans, enabling the disabled, protecting and assisting soldiers and police, finding the lost…on and on and on and on. The extreme, almost miraculous good (cancer detection? Blood sugar drop detection? Epilepsy detection?) that dogs bring to our individual lives and our collective society outweighs the occasional extreme damage, by many orders of magnitude. > > Which is exactly the same equation we use to determine the value of all things that can and do hurt us while also being a boon to us, and most of the other things have far worse track records than dogs, but we keep 'em around anyway. Hardly sems fair to use a much harsher standard for dogs. > > Thats why. Good reasons. My response is simply that based on reasonable evidence by qualified experts, all those things can be done by dogs not identified as ‘pit bulls and their ilk’., the ones responsible for most of the negative reaction to large dogs. I say, protect the reputation of all dogs by taking pit bulls out of the mix. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/242 "2013-12-03T16:43:10Z")
Don’t even THINK about coming near my babies or _ **I** _ will hurt you. They, on the other hand, will likely lick you to death. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/243 "2013-12-03T16:49:44Z")
Bolding mine: > [@Shayna](#): > > Don’t even THINK about coming near my **babies** or _ **I** _ will hurt you. Great, now the “those are’t your babies!” crowd will show up. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/244 "2013-12-03T17:01:23Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Bolding mine:Great, now the “those are’t your babies!” crowd will show up. 😃 LOL! I was just thinking the same thing! ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/245 "2013-12-03T17:22:31Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > See, to me, Duke looks pretty by-the-book pit bull. Where would [my dog](https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/401642_10151421155178777_1787496304_n.jpg) fit on the UK scale? Duke is no way a pure-breed pit bull. If you saw him IRL you might even mistake him for [a yellow lab](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:YellowLabradorLooking_new.jpg) for a moment. His [snout is almost pointy](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=658410947502834&set=pb.100000018040262.-2207520000.1386090727.&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Fscontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F1006029_658410947502834_1515119036_n.jpg&size=480%2C640); not at all as square as pits’ usually are. Even the vet said he’s totally a mixed breed mutt. It’s Lola who has more of the pit bull characteristics … including [being a snugglebunny](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=721692777841317&set=pb.100000018040262.-2207520000.1386091421.&type=3). Your dog is gorgeous, by the way! > [@pulykamell](#): > > Looks like a pit to me. Adorable. My poor guy had to get an operation today to take out a mass on his shoulder. Hopefully, it’s not anything serious. He’s only two years old and the vet thinks it’s probably benign, but I sure hope so. Poor guy is so out of it right now. Awww, I hope it’s nothing serious. Please let us know what it is and update us on how he’s doing? > [@crucible](#): > > I do not see what pit bulls do for us that couldn’t be done by smaller, less inclined to injure when they bite, dogs. they are one breed whose potential for damage to humans far outweighs any traits peculiar to the breed that are positives. > > I think that is a rational point of view. You may not think so, but I do, and so do zillions of other folks. It’s not a rational point of view, it’s an emotional point of view. My significantly smaller dachshund that I had for 15 years growing up, could not come close to showing the kind of affection my pits do. And he was a vicious sucker - bit numerous people, one in the _face_. My pits wouldn’t bite you even if I yelled, “SIC!” or “ATTACK!” They are _all about_ the kisses. I’ve never, ever known a dog that gave as many kisses as these guys do. That’s all they want to do is kiss and lick you. I would no more have put my face anywhere near my dachshund’s face than put it in the face of a cobra. But I think nothing of nuzzling my pit bulls. Honest to Og, you would too if you met them. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/246 "2013-12-03T17:31:32Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Bolding mine:Great, now the “those are’t your babies!” crowd will show up. 😃 > [@Rhiannon8404](#): > > LOL! I was just thinking the same thing! LOL! My husband isn’t a prince, either, but I call him that all the time. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/247 "2013-12-03T18:32:39Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Do you consider [this situation](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA8VJh0UJtg) dangerous as hell? [This](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYl8SYNuaKQ)? Do you have a set ostandards for dog/child proximity that make it dangerous or safe? Is it size, breed, age, cuteness, activities…? Or do you just think all small children and dogs are automatically a recipe for blood-curdling mayhem? :rolleyes: I can’t believe you really need this spelled out, but since you are displaying every sign of being dumber than a box of rocks: No, there’s no defined ‘distance’ between dog and child that can be considered ‘safe’ or ‘dangerous’. In both videos, the dogs are in a clearly passive state. The first one, there \*might _be one or two very mild warning signs - it’s believed that a dog placing his paws on you in that manner -might- be trying to assert dominance. But for almost the entire video he’s down on his stomach, approaching from a prone position on the floor, so he could just be trying to instigate play. The second video, same thing - the dog is playing, there’s no sign of dominance or aggression_. Contrast that with the first pictures you posted - the dog approaches standing up, then lies on \*top \*of the baby. He’s very likely displaying dominant behavior - if I’m the parents I’m definitely not \*rewarding \*that behavior. In any event, pls do let me know when Newfoundlands or Labs are responsible for 60%+ of dog bite deaths despite making up only 4-5% of the doggie population. - And if you try to give me the standard ‘ah ha! My pits never show signs of aggression or dominance!’, I’ll tell you right now that I \*don’t fucking believe you, \*because pits are by nature dominant, strong, determined dogs. Even the biggest pit advocates wouldn’t try to argue otherwise (they will argue whether that means pits are inherently \*dangerous \*or not). ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/248 "2013-12-04T00:57:09Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Don’t even THINK about coming near my babies or _ **I** _ will hurt you. > > They, on the other hand, will likely lick you to death. True dat, Especially since my girl has a very rough face… She has whiskers in her lips that are kind of like a shaved beard, very stubbly… And her tnogue is scratchy like a cats… But I still love her kisses. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/249 "2013-12-04T01:03:27Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > : > > - And if you try to give me the standard ‘ah ha! My pits never show signs of aggression or dominance!’, I’ll tell you right now that I \*don’t fucking believe you, \*because pits are by nature dominant, strong, determined dogs. Even the biggest pit advocates wouldn’t try to argue otherwise (they will argue whether that means pits are inherently \*dangerous \*or not). Well. There’s no question that announcing that your opponents are lying to you when they tell you something other than what you believe is a very effective way to end the discussion. Because obviously it’s pointless… You have determined reality, and anything that does not agree with what you have decided reality is simply does not exist. Got it. I would imagine the closing your eyes and sticking your fingers in your ears results in you falling down and hurting yourself quite a bit, making the strategy less than optimal. But, to each his own. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/250 "2013-12-04T02:05:50Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Duke is no way a pure-breed pit bull. If you saw him IRL you might even mistake him for [a yellow lab](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:YellowLabradorLooking_new.jpg) for a moment. His [snout is almost pointy](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=658410947502834&set=pb.100000018040262.-2207520000.1386090727.&type=3&src=https%3A%2F%2Fscontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ash3%2F1006029_658410947502834_1515119036_n.jpg&size=480%2C640); not at all as square as pits’ usually are. Even the vet said he’s totally a mixed breed mutt. It’s Lola who has more of the pit bull characteristics … including [being a snugglebunny](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=721692777841317&set=pb.100000018040262.-2207520000.1386091421.&type=3). > > Your dog is gorgeous, by the way! > > Awww, I hope it’s nothing serious. Please let us know what it is and update us on how he’s doing? It’s not a rational point of view, it’s an emotional point of view. Thanks! He just had a growth on his arm. He’s recovering okay…we’ll find out in a couple days if it’s anything serious. See, from that picture, to me Duke looks more like pit than anything else. My guy looks quite similar to that when he’s laying down and his muzzle is against the ground. Put it this way, if I saw that picture and you asked me to guess the breed, pit bull or pit bull mix would be my first guess. No, probably not pure bred, but how many are? I doubt mine is pure bred pit, either. I actually wouldn’t be surprised if it turned out he wasn’t a pit bull at all. He definitely has retriever qualities to his personality, and a lot of people think he’s a boxer. Who knows. One thing I found out from volunteering at the shelter was just how wide a net “pit bull mix” covers. I saw dogs that I would’ve sworn were mostly shepherds labeled as “pit mixes,” and from your picture, that dog would certainly be labeled “pit mix” at our shelter. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/251 "2013-12-04T02:27:27Z")
Actually, I just saw another picture on your photo pages of Duke where he does _not_ look as much as a pit bull ([this photo](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=656256511051611&set=pb.100000018040262.-2207520000.1386090727.&type=3&permPage=1)). That’s a side view of him where he looks much more lab-like, but still with pit bull characteristics. But from that photo you first posted, to me, it’s hard to tell with the angle and the foreshortening of his muzzle. I woulda totally guessed pit. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/252 "2013-12-04T02:35:24Z")
It’s interesting, as I checked out the other photos, and I’d say in about 80% he clearly looks like a pit to me, and 20%, he doesn’t. Duke is a chameleon. Perhaps this speaks a little to the difficulty of identification. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/253 "2013-12-04T05:32:50Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Thanks! He just had a growth on his arm. He’s recovering okay…we’ll find out in a couple days if it’s anything serious. I’m glad to hear he’s recovering well and I hope it turns out to be nothing. > [@pulykamell](#): > > See, from that picture, to me Duke looks more like pit than anything else. My guy looks quite similar to that when he’s laying down and his muzzle is against the ground. Put it this way, if I saw that picture and you asked me to guess the breed, pit bull or pit bull mix would be my first guess. … > > Actually, I just saw another picture on your photo pages of Duke where he does _not_ look as much as a pit bull ([this photo](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=656256511051611&set=pb.100000018040262.-2207520000.1386090727.&type=3&permPage=1)). That’s a side view of him where he looks much more lab-like, but still with pit bull characteristics. But from that photo you first posted, to me, it’s hard to tell with the angle and the foreshortening of his muzzle. I woulda totally guessed pit. … > > It’s interesting, as I checked out the other photos, and I’d say in about 80% he clearly looks like a pit to me, and 20%, he doesn’t. Duke is a chameleon. Perhaps this speaks a little to the difficulty of identification. Oh there’s no mistaking he’s a pit if you know what a pit looks like, but you’d be surprised how many people don’t realize that’s what he is. He has the telltale chest marking which is a dead giveaway. _You_ would know he’s mostly pit right away. But it’s also pretty clear he’s mixed with something else, though what that something is is a mystery. Lola is all pit all the time. She’s shorter and stockier and has that more [mooshed face](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=646449918698937&set=a.646420038701925.1073741835.100000018040262&type=3) compared to Duke’s [longer one](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=646449878698941&set=a.646420038701925.1073741835.100000018040262&type=3). Plus, his ears are [longer and floppier](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=656256511051611&set=a.646420038701925.1073741835.100000018040262&type=3&permPage=1), whereas hers are shorter and she [holds them more on top of her head](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=656256561051606&set=a.646420038701925.1073741835.100000018040262&type=3&permPage=1). Side-by-side [comparison here](https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=646569102020352&set=a.646420038701925.1073741835.100000018040262&type=3&permPage=1). ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/254 "2013-12-04T08:41:16Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Well. There’s no question that announcing that your opponents are lying to you when they tell you something other than what you believe is a very effective way to end the discussion. Because obviously it’s pointless… You have determined reality, and anything that does not agree with what you have decided reality is simply does not exist. Got it. > > I would imagine the closing your eyes and sticking your fingers in your ears results in you falling down and hurting yourself quite a bit, making the strategy less than optimal. But, to each his own. Do you believe or not believe that pits are by nature dominant, strong, determined dogs? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/255 "2013-12-04T08:57:44Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Do you believe or not believe that pits are by nature dominant, strong, determined dogs? Pits are by nature strong, that follows from their physicality. Dominance and determination are traits that can show up in any dog. It has not been my observation or experience that pits are these things at a rate exceeding the dog population generally. In fact, the only personality trait that I have heard of and seen for myself is their tendency to be kissers, and to desire physical contact in ways other than petting. They like to lean on you and lay on you and sleep right next to you in ways I have not observed in other dogs. The most dominant and stubborn dog I ever knew was a female miniature dachshund, much like Shayna’s. dreadful little biting bitch. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/256 "2013-12-04T12:13:57Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Do you believe or not believe that pits are by nature dominant, strong, determined dogs? Replace “pits” with “{race or ethnicity of your choice}” and things get interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/257 "2013-12-04T12:39:12Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Replace “pits” with “{race or ethnicity of your choice}” and things get interesting. Excellent point! Dog breeds are different from one another in the same way that human races are different from one another… All the same species, just some superficial differences. Same core set of emotional and bahavioral responses across the entire species. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/258 "2013-12-04T13:30:50Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Pits are by nature strong, that follows from their physicality. > > Dominance and determination are traits that can show up in any dog. It has not been my observation or experience that pits are these things at a rate exceeding the dog population generally. In fact, the only personality trait that I have heard of and seen for myself is their tendency to be kissers, and to desire physical contact in ways other than petting. They like to lean on you and lay on you and sleep right next to you in ways I have not observed in other dogs. The ASPCA disagrees with you: > [@](#): > > Dog breeds are characterized by certain behavioral traits. > \ > Pit bulls have been bred to behave differently during a fight. They may not give warning before becoming aggressive, and they’re less likely to back down when clashing with an opponent. When provoked, they may become aggressive more readily than another breed might. Sometimes they don’t inhibit their bites, so they may cause injury more often than other dogs. > \ > However, because of pit bulls’ natural tendencies, a little squabble between friends can turn into a serious fight, even if a pit bull has been very well socialized. And, after experiencing a fight or two, a pit bull may become testy with unfamiliar dogs in general. > \ > Pit bulls are strong, determined dogs. It might not be a pit bull who starts a disagreement, but he may be the one to finish it. > \ > They’re easily excited and, when in an agitated state, they may have little control over their behavior if they haven’t been taught to inhibit their impulses. This trait has given pit bulls a reputation for being “mouthy”—they tend to bite harder in play than other breeds. They are also quite stoic and can be insensitive to pain. And that’s from a site that is bending over backwards in its support for pits. > [@](#): > > They like to lean on you and lay on you and sleep right next to you in ways I have not observed in other dogs. You clearly haven’t been around many dogs. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/259 "2013-12-04T13:36:40Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > They like to \*\*lean on you and lay on you \*\*and sleep right next to you in ways I have not observed in other dogs. Bolding mine - those are signs of a dog trying to assert dominance over you. Not a good sign. Curling up or lying down beside you is harmless. Almost every dog we’ve ever had did that. > [@](#): > > The most dominant and stubborn dog I ever knew was a female miniature dachshund, much like Shayna’s. dreadful little biting bitch. I didn’t know miniature dachshunds were killing dozens of kids each year. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/260 "2013-12-04T13:46:22Z")
so much of the pushback here seems to center on the owner’s personal relationship with their pit bulls (and similar mixed breed dogs). Yes, we form attachments to our animals – cats dogs horses rats spiders etc. – and to us, the animal seems idealized. Our animal could never be responsible for attacking a human being…or another dog…or cat…etc. They are just too lovable, I just want to bury my face in their fur… So, you love your animals. That should not prevent you from considering the rational proposition that since pit bull type dogs have recognized traits and have the ability to kill humans…we should phase them out. They can be replaced in our hearts, over time, by less dangerous dogs. I’m not saying that other dog species are less inclined to bite (though that might well be) but that when they do bite, they aren’t as likely to maim or kill. It really does boil down to recognized negatives for the kind of dog you love. Even if only a few out of a thousand pit bulls attack during their lifetime, when they do, they do tremendous harm. That is an unacceptable risk when you can’t find one single thing a pit bull does that isn’t available to you with a less dangerous companion. I don’t consider anyone a fool for having a dog they love. I do think, though, that you have to be smart about what you chose to love, and, of course, be very very very careful not to give that big old lovable pooch a chance to turn aggressive, to learn that attacking is fun. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714.md?page=14)