# Pit Bulls (continued) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 8, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714 "2013-10-08T19:18:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/461 "2013-12-31T13:07:37Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Please quote the parts of Shayna’s posts that you think describe “expert” abilities that represent an unreasonable standard of care for a powerful canine living among human beings. The position of all advocates of pit bull type dogs as ‘family dogs’ is that preventing the dog from becoming the dominant animal in the family pack is essential and that it takes constant attention for some period of time to accomplish that. Many people who want dogs haven’t a clew about pack heirarchy, ‘who’s the boss’ relationships between dog and all the humans in the family. Those who do think they understand that need have to break down into those able to do the training, to provide the level of attention needed for an extended time…and those who don’t. so, right there…maybe half of people who adopt a pit get the job done? What do we, the other people in the world, do about the one’s who don’t get that job done? ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/462 "2013-12-31T14:39:19Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > The position of all advocates of pit bull type dogs as ‘family dogs’ is that preventing the dog from becoming the dominant animal in the family pack is essential and that it takes constant attention for some period of time to accomplish that. Many people who want dogs haven’t a clew about pack heirarchy, ‘who’s the boss’ relationships between dog and all the humans in the family. Those who do think they understand that need have to break down into those able to do the training, to provide the level of attention needed for an extended time…and those who don’t. so, right there…maybe half of people who adopt a pit get the job done? > > What do we, the other people in the world, do about the one’s who don’t get that job done? Um cite? This is an awful lot of bull shit to try and shovel out hoping we’ll take your word on it. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/463 "2013-12-31T14:46:19Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Please quote the parts of Shayna’s posts that you think describe “expert” abilities that represent an unreasonable standard of care for a powerful canine living among human beings. I think Dutchman and Shayna have covered this territory rather well. My observation is that the ‘average’ dog adopter doesn’t really have a clue about how much trouble it is to properly handle a pit bull type animal…and we don’t need very many ignoramuses to create an attack and/or fatality. If there is no guarantee that the new owner of a pit bull type dog has those skills, knowledge and dedication to finish the job and then maintain the dog properly…if there is not guarantee…then there are obviously pit bull type animals out there that I don’t want to be exposed to me or mine. If the dog in question is less capable of mayhem, the quality of the owner is not so much a critical matter. Yes, there will be some problems with smaller dogs, dogs whose reputation as a breed is gentleness…but not the level of fatalities and maimings you will get by having some portion of pit bull owners not up to the standards Shayna expects. This sort of begs the question, what percent of incapable pit bull owners also have a gun in the house where kids can find and play with it? ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/464 "2013-12-31T14:52:18Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > Um cite? This is an awful lot of bull shit to try and shovel out hoping we’ll take your word on it. I’m sorry you think the argument isn’t solid. It just boils down to putting a potentially dangerous animal in the hands of people without finding out for certain that they will domesticate the animal properly. I understand that shelters try to screen owners…but how about the puppy mill people? I can’t imagine someone turning down a couple of hundred dollars for a pup because they aren’t sure the new owner is able to handle a dog with the nature of pit bull. Do we agree about the nature of the untrained pit bull?? You aren’t going to be able to regulate the ownership of pit bull type animals to only those people able to own them properly. (no more so than gun ownership, unfortunately). The only way I can see to temper the problem is to ‘alter’ the dogs. Beyond that, if appropriate identification can be made of ‘pit bull type’ animals, maybe a ban. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/465 "2013-12-31T15:16:17Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > I’m sorry you think the argument isn’t solid. I not only think your argument isn’t solid I think you pulled it completely out of your ass, which is why I am asking for a cite. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/466 "2013-12-31T16:18:09Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > I not only think your argument isn’t solid I think you pulled it completely out of your ass, which is why I am asking for a cite. the whole thread, the statements that owners are responsible for their animals, that the animals are great if they have decent owners…that is the cite…the whole preposterous philosophy that dog attacks are prevented because you know what it takes to properly handle your dog…and then you conveniently ignore the rest of the people who don’t know how to do it, or won’t do it, or could care less, just want a nasty, capable of ripping your face off (literally) dog. You want us to forgive all that potential for mayhem because you or your friend or someone you talked to on line knows how to handle pit bulls…and should be allowed to have them in peace without the rest of us citing instance after instance where pit bull like dogs have killed and maimed. guns are a big problem, with most people knowing how dangerous they are to our society and wanting regulation of their ownership and use…but the Constitution stands in the way, etc. dogs don’t have Constitutional protection. They are dogs. I should not have to worry about the possibility of my neighbor’s dog getting loose and killing my grandchild at play in his own yard…but you claim I should have to because YOU know how to handle YOUR dogs. Sorry, since you do agree that the dogs you have would be dangerous if YOU weren’t their owner, you have to also agree that dogs without such ownership are, in fact, dangerous and a threat to kill and maim. Simple as that. so, if you say there shouldn’t be regulations controlling who and how pit bulls can be owned, you are part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/467 "2013-12-31T16:26:22Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > … but not the level of fatalities and maimings you will get by having some portion of pit bull owners not up to the standards Shayna expects. The standards I expect for Pit Bull owners are basic common fucking sense as they are for _all_ dog breeds. Anyone who wants to own a dog should first and foremost **know the traits of the breed they want**. But most dog owners _in general_ don’t bother to learn this about the dogs they adopt or buy. [Dalmatians _flooded_ animal shelters](http://lubbockonline.com/news/050297/dalmatia.htm) after hundreds of people bought them following the two Disney movies. > [@](#): > > Molly and Allison had a memorable Monday morning. Molly, a 6-month-old Dalmatian, and Allison Wroe, director of community resources for the Humane Society of the Pikes Peak Region, were merrily driving on Interstate 25, on their way to a radio interview. Wroe was behind the wheel; Molly was tethered in the back of the car. > > Suddenly, Molly broke free. She vaulted into the front seat and enthusiastically began helping Wroe eat her fast-food breakfast (‘‘She got the hash browns,’’ Wroe said). The two squirmed and wrestled before the mini-drama ended. > > A couple of hours later, Molly was back in her new home - Kennel No. 2 at the Humane Society. As Wroe stood in front of the enclosure, she said, ‘‘Molly is a good dog - she just really wanted my McDonald’s breakfast.’’ > > **But what can you expect from a breed that, by nature, is high-energy and high-maintenance?** In a matter of months, those traits have exasperated many owners who bought the adorable pooches as Christmas presents in the afterglow of The Disney movie ‘‘101 Dalmatians.’’ > > **As predicted by experts six months ago, Dalmatians have flooded animal shelters from coast to coast. Many owners either didn’t understand or disregarded warnings about the dogs, which need lots of exercise and obedience training,** shed incessantly and are prone to health problems ranging from deafness to urinary-tract stones. So how is knowing the traits of the breed you’re adopting such an extraordinary request? It’s not. It’s common fucking sense. Not locking your dog outside in a cage, treating it as a family pet, properly socializing and obedience training it — those are too high standards for dog owners? Really? Surely you jest. > [@crucible](#): > > This sort of begs the question, what percent of incapable pit bull owners also have a gun in the house where kids can find and play with it? No it fucking doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/468 "2013-12-31T16:33:11Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > guns are a big problem, with most people knowing how dangerous they are to our society and wanting regulation of their ownership and use…but the Constitution stands in the way, etc. > > dogs don’t have Constitutional protection. They are dogs. I don’t know much about pit bulls or big dogs in general, however I can see a certain parallel. So how many crimes (to include burglaries, rapes, and murders) are estimated to be deterred per year by big dogs? ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/469 "2013-12-31T16:39:03Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > The standards I expect for Pit Bull owners are basic common fucking sense as they are for _all_ dog breeds. > > Anyone who wants to own a dog should first and foremost **know the traits of the breed they want**. But most dog owners _in general_ don’t bother to learn this about the dogs they adopt or buy. [Dalmatians _flooded_ animal shelters](http://lubbockonline.com/news/050297/dalmatia.htm) after hundreds of people bought them following the two Disney movies. So how is knowing the traits of the breed you’re adopting such an extraordinary request? It’s not. It’s common fucking sense. > > Not locking your dog outside in a cage, treating it as a family pet, properly socializing and obedience training it — those are too high standards for dog owners? Really? Surely you jest. No it fucking doesn’t. No, it isn’t a high standard, but…can you really assure me that all dangerous dog owners are even ‘that’ competent? You cite the Dalmatian phenomena. I agree with you, many dog owners take on dogs they can’t handle properly…is that MY problem? Should I have to worry about their incompetence? NO! Stop them from owning dogs they can’t handle in the first place! Isn’t it obvious??? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/470 "2013-12-31T17:05:03Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Stop them from owning dogs they can’t handle in the first place! Isn’t it obvious??? Background checks to own a dog? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/471 "2013-12-31T17:18:06Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > No, it isn’t a high standard, but…can you really assure me that all dangerous dog owners are even ‘that’ competent? > > You cite the Dalmatian phenomena. I agree with you, many dog owners take on dogs they can’t handle properly…is that MY problem? Should I have to worry about their incompetence? NO! Stop them from owning dogs they can’t handle in the first place! Isn’t it obvious??? Ah, now we come to the heart of it… You suffer from the the silly, laughable impression that no matter how much of a burden and a pain it might be to millions of other people, you are entitled to be protected from all potential harm, no matter how infintesimal the possibility of it actually coming to pass. Well, get over yourself and take steps to avoid being in the presence of dogs that scare you. Your irrational fear is your problem, not mine. And shame on your sense of entitlement. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/472 "2013-12-31T17:24:03Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I don’t know much about pit bulls or big dogs in general, however I can see a certain parallel. So how many crimes (to include burglaries, rapes, and murders) are estimated to be deterred per year by big dogs? Far more than those deterred by big guns, no question about that. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/473 "2013-12-31T17:26:50Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Do we agree about the nature of the untrained pit bull?? This +999. It’s amazing how on the one hand pit owners go gaga over their lovey-dovey bestest EVAR dogs on the one hand, then say, ‘well things would be fine except for bad owners!’. It’s like they don’t even realize the argument they’re agreeing to: that it’s only an issue for specific owners of a specific type of dog…because it’s a specific type of dog. I notice no one complaining about dangerous, shitty Shiz Tsu or Golden Retriever owners… ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/474 "2013-12-31T17:38:36Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Far more than those deterred by big guns, no question about that. Well that has to number in the hundreds of thousands at least, while there are only a handful of deaths a year? Sounds like a net positive for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/475 "2013-12-31T17:48:54Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > This +999. It’s amazing how on the one hand pit owners go gaga over their lovey-dovey bestest EVAR dogs on the one hand, then say, ‘well things would be fine except for bad owners!’. It’s like they don’t even realize the argument they’re agreeing to: that it’s only an issue for specific owners of a specific type of dog…because it’s a specific type of dog. I notice no one complaining about dangerous, shitty Shiz Tsu or Golden Retriever owners… ::sigh:: > [@](#): > > [The experts’ professional opinions](http://www.dogwatch.net/fight_ontario_ban/experts_excluded.html): > > [ul] > [li]“Pit bulls” are not inherently or genetically different than other breeds.[/li][li] The top 4 biters by breed are German Shepherds, Rottweillers, Cocker Spaniels, and **Golden Retrievers**.[/li][li] Bites by “pit bull” type dogs account for less than 5% of all serious bites in Canada.[/li][li] It is a myth that “pit bull” type dogs are unique in how they attack. Other breeds also have a bite and hold pattern.[/li][li] There is no qualitative difference between a serious attack by a “pit bull” and one by another breed of a comparable size.[/li][li] A bite and hold attack is not qualitatively more severe than a series of slashing bites typical for a breed like the German Shepherd.[/li][li] Dogs in attacks are regularly misidentified as “pit bulls”. If “pit bull” attacks were qualitatively different then this confusion should not exist.[/li] > [li] Breed bans are unenforceable.[/li][li] Breed bans are extremely expensive.[/li][li] Breed bans unfairly punish responsible owners while irresponsible owners ignore the laws.[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/476 "2013-12-31T18:18:12Z")
You only think that because you continue to ignore the parts that don’t fit your narrative. So you argue dishonestly. Golden Retrievers are an actual breed that is very easily identified and is generally going to be expensive to purchase because the people who breed them, even casually, have AKC papers and are going to charge. “Pit Bulls” includes a huge number of dogs, not only the three breeds recognized by the AKC, which together comprise a very small percentage of the total number of dogs called pit bulls, but an enormous number of other dogs which are, for the most part, backyard bred and easily acquired for little to no money. Pregnant females and new litters are available in large urban rescues and shelters almost constantly, so plentiful that they are euthanized regularly. This means that pit bulls are going to automatically be more vulnerable to casual, thoughtless acquisition by people who have neither the means or the education to be good dog guardians, and Goldens are not. _ **Start** _ there. If you aren’t going to address all aspects of the situation you present as “proof” that pit bulls are inherently defective in some way, then you aren’t arguing honestly and you don’t rate a serious response to anything you say. (By the way, I was a volunteer for [The Golden Retriever Club of Los Angeles Rescue.](http://www.grcglarescue.org/RP_WebDoc.asp?ttid=203) I have extensive direct knowledge and experience of what i am telling you, from both ends of it. I adore Goldens, and I had two, but a factor in my decision to get a pit bull included the financial and practical ease with which I could acquire a puppy. And acquiring a puppy was important for me because I have never had a bully breed of any kind, and I know that pit bulls ARE more inclined to have dog-aggression issues, so I wanted to be in control of preventing that from the beginning: dog aggression problems can be exacerbated or extinguished most effectively in the first 4 months of life.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/477 "2013-12-31T18:21:08Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > I’m glad your willing to admit you have trouble controlling your schnauzer and would consider taking him to the pound rather than calling for everybody’s schnauzers be put down because you’re afraid they can’t control theirs. That would be a rather ridiculous stance to take don’t you think? True, cause my schnauzer has never hurt a flea. So I have no worries when he does break free. And no schnauzer has ever put fear in me. Back in my day, growing up, most dogs were resident dogs and I never heard of pitbulls. There were very few Rottweillers,Dobermans or anything that looked aggressive. Plenty of German Shepherds though and the ones kept in junkyards or constantly chained were scary enough but that was it. We had doghouses back then. The elementary school yard always attracted a lot of dogs and dog fights were not uncommon but brief. I myself had a German Shepherd that ran free the 5 miles of my paper route with me every day. Hell, back in those days nobody walked their dog, nobody picked up their shit, and nobody worried about their kids (who were unsupervised as well in those days) getting mauled on their way to school. BTW, I’ve been bitten twice in my youth, once by a usually friendly dalmation and once by a cocker spaniel. In both cases they were house dogs that I had no concern about and the bites were inconsequential. So I’m coming from a time and place where we looked a dogs differently. A lot more interaction between people(kids) and dogs took place back then and a lot less fear. What has changed ? A lot more bully breeds dogs. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/478 "2013-12-31T18:41:10Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > What has changed ? > A lot more bully breeds dogs. I’m sure you have a cite for this utter crap. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/479 "2013-12-31T18:55:56Z")
I’m speaking honestly from my personal experience and I made that quite clear. Your assessment of that experience , “crap”, has no possible foundation at all and is indicative of the integrity of your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/480 "2013-12-31T19:03:46Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I’m speaking honestly from my personal experience and I made that quite clear. Your assessment of that experience , “crap”, has no possible foundation at all and is indicative of the integrity of your argument. Sounds good, I guess, except it doesn’t mean a thing. I refer to your denigrating the “integrity” of Shayna’s argument. Really bugs me when people use words without really having a solid comprehension of their meaning. Bah. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714.md?page=25)