# Pit Bulls (continued) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 8, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714 "2013-10-08T19:18:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2013, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/501 "2013-12-31T23:46:08Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > One ‘expert’. One. And who says she’s an expert? What training has she had? What’s her background? Of course you scoff at experts, because none exist that support your viewpoint. So all the experts must be wrong. > [@kambuckta](#): > > Anyway, I’m going to enjoy my New Years Day, and hereby bowing out of this thread. It’s a pointless waste of time. I know **Stoid** has always had a reputation for being a nutter of all sorts of flavours, but _you_ **Shayna** …I seriously would have expected a more level-headed approach. > > Seems I was wrong. Oh Shayna, you best fold up like a cheap tent now… you’ve been compared to me! And you don’t want to be thought of alongside the likes of _me_! What with all my cites to experts and professional organizations… yech! And what about my nortorious habit of responding to groundless opinions with fact-based data assembled by unbiased researchers? Ew! Gross! And the way I eschew abuse in favor of information and reasoned argument? Blech! You are definitely better off embracing the tactics of kambuckta, Dragon Ash, etc: ignore anything that doesn’t support your argument, repeat yourself without providing any citation to any reputable authority, become rude and abusive, lather, rinse, repeat. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/502 "2014-01-01T00:22:36Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Of course you scoff at experts, because none exist that support your viewpoint. So all the experts must be wrong. I’m sorry - what training, certification & educational background did you say your expert had again? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/503 "2014-01-01T00:22:53Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I don’t know much about pit bulls or big dogs in general, however I can see a certain parallel. So how many crimes (to include burglaries, rapes, and murders) are estimated to be deterred per year by big dogs? I see what you’re doing there 😉 but, as a person who has many times here supported the use of Any Ol’ Two (Or More) Dogs on the frontline of home defense, little yappers work, too. They wake the Mastiff. And you. Only the craziest home invader is not deterred. Two dogs because keeping a single dog is cruel. They aren’t people and need the company of their own species, something that thinks like them. One way they think is double-teaming, with one keeping the intruder’s attention while the other bites his ass. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/504 "2014-01-01T00:49:01Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I see what you’re doing there 😉 but, as a person who has many times here supported the use of Any Ol’ Two (Or More) Dogs on the frontline of home defense, little yappers work, too. They wake the Mastiff. And you. Only the craziest home invader is not deterred. OK, so having not read any of the past Pit Bull threads, has there been any talk of the number of burglaries and homicides in homes of people with dogs or not? Rapes of joggers with dogs or not? Just googling it I see that there are ~30 fatal dog attacks a year, but if they prevent 1000 homicides… I agree that little yapper dogs are some deterrence to criminals but I have to think big biters like your Mastiff are greater deterrence. I was also reflecting on what others have said about criminals tending to own Pit Bulls. I’m thinking that if I lived in a bad neighborhood, as criminals often do, and I could not pass a background check for a firearm, I might rationally conclude a Pit Bull was the next best thing. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/505 "2014-01-01T01:13:37Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > I’m sorry - what training, certification & educational background did you say your expert had again? You can google Shayna’s expert if that’s what you are referring to. MY expert is [Janine Pierce](http://www.j9sk9s.com/), with whom I have been training and consulting for 13 years, since I got my first Golden. Look at the bottom of that page for her certifications and training. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/506 "2014-01-01T01:58:18Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I was also reflecting on what others have said about criminals tending to own Pit Bulls. I’m thinking that if I lived in a bad neighborhood, as criminals often do, and I could not pass a background check for a firearm, I might rationally conclude a Pit Bull was the next best thing. Nope. Best. Except it doesn’t have to be a Pit. Most any big dog has a deep enough voice to catch someone’s attention, like racking the slide on a shotgun. And they clean up after themselves, sorta. Two or more would clean more effectively. You don’t even have to get out of bed. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/507 "2014-01-01T13:57:47Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > OK, so having not read any of the past Pit Bull threads, has there been any talk of the number of burglaries and homicides in homes of people with dogs or not? Rapes of joggers with dogs or not? Just googling it I see that there are ~30 fatal dog attacks a year, but if they prevent 1000 homicides… I agree that little yapper dogs are some deterrence to criminals but I have to think big biters like your Mastiff are greater deterrence. > > I was also reflecting on what others have said about criminals tending to own Pit Bulls. I’m thinking that if I lived in a bad neighborhood, as criminals often do, and I could not pass a background check for a firearm, I might rationally conclude a Pit Bull was the next best thing. I would never minimize the positive things that dogs can do for humans. Being a good guard dog is among those attributes. I am sure that many crimes are avoided by a person’s family if there is a dog in the household, even lives saved from natural and unnatural catastrophes by dogs. Dogs are great, and the effort of maintaining one is often worth it. Still, my argument is, in agreement with others, that dogs can be good guard dogs and not have a history of killing humans. anything a pit bull can do, some other less dangerous dog can do. yes, most pit bulls are pretty ordinary family dogs. Most of them will never bite a human…but, just because the event is rare doesn’t make the even less tragic and avoidable. Perhaps some people have been lulled by pro-pit propaganda to think that a pit bull is the perfect baby sitter, the perfect guard dog, protecting the family against all sorts of harm…without being aware that 10 or 20 people in the US are killed every year by pit bulls. Those folks would be better served by some other dog with more safety for the family and more for the visitor or delivery person. Or, looking at it a bit differently, is your pit bull just as good a guard dog, a family dog, just as smart, just as friendly without his balls? Yes, and a heck of a lot less dangerous to the public, too. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/508 "2014-01-01T14:41:46Z")
[broken record] First, define “pit bull.” Without proper definition of, and agreement on, the terms we use no real discussion can take place. But yeah, all male dogs are better if they are castrated as soon as they begin suffering from Foolish Barking Syndrome. If you have a male dog you know what I mean; if you get a male dog you’ll know it when it starts. The procedure is not called “fixing” the dog for nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/509 "2014-01-01T14:52:23Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Nope. Best. Nah, put me in a room with my gun and your meanest dog, and only I’m walking out of there, and my gun won’t chew my furniture, shed on my clothes or shit in my backyard. > [@](#): > > Except it doesn’t have to be a Pit. But it could be, and I have to think a Pit would be better than average, and cheaper than average if you are poor. I hear they are light shedders too. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/510 "2014-01-01T14:59:32Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Still, my argument is, in agreement with others, that dogs can be good guard dogs and not have a history of killing humans. anything a pit bull can do, some other less dangerous dog can do. Like a Rottweiler? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/511 "2014-01-01T18:03:24Z")
Good enough for the Roman Legions, good enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/512 "2014-01-01T20:14:34Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > You can google Shayna’s expert if that’s what you are referring to. > > MY expert is [Janine Pierce](http://www.j9sk9s.com/), with whom I have been training and consulting for 13 years, since I got my first Golden. Look at the bottom of that page for her certifications and training. My expert is [Gary Wilkes](https://www.facebook.com/PitbullBan), “an internationally acclaimed behaviorist , trainer, author columnist and lecturer. He has more than **30** years experience working with dogs including eight years shelter work.” He’s rehabilitated plenty of pitbulls and admits they are “bright affectionate and loving” but is quite clear that they were " bred to do one thing- attack with no reservations. The link I provided is his facebook page inviting reports of pit bull attacks. I checked for last month, December, and uncovered the following Dec 21…Tuscon…Severe injury ``` 15.........Valencia...............fatality 10........Leeds...................fatality 9.........Chicago...............fatality 7.........Roselle.................hospitalization ``` These are only the ones reported to a facebook page. He’s actually a [pitbull lover](https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/150134_359751647438475_925397296_n.jpg), but doesn’t care for the bullshit and babies having their faces ripped off. And on BSL lets here what happened in Catalonia > [@from link](#): > > Study: Decline in hospitalisations due to dog bite injuries in Catalonia, 1997-2008. An effect of Government Regulation > > Objective: To analyse population based data on hospitalisation caused by dog bite injuries after changes in legal regulations on dog ownership, including breed specific regulations. > > Results: There was a significant decline in hospitalisations (38%) caused by injuries from dog bites after the restriction of the following breeds of dog: American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Argentine Dogo, Bull Terrier and Staffordshire Bull Terrier > > Conclusions: Government Regulations were associated with a sizable decrease in injuries caused by dog bites in Catalonia. Or how about Manitoba > [@link](#): > > The study “Effectiveness of breed-specific legislation in decreasing the incidence of dog-bite injury hospitalisations in people in the Canadian province of Manitoba” clearly showed there was a significant reduction in dog-bite injury hospitalisations (DBIH) rates from the pre-BSL to post-BSL period. [https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B\_TQhn0TrPSbdHl1dzJoZjdxSG8/edit?usp=sharing](https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_TQhn0TrPSbdHl1dzJoZjdxSG8/edit?usp=sharing) ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/513 "2014-01-01T20:58:02Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > My expert is [Gary Wilkes](https://www.facebook.com/PitbullBan), “an internationally acclaimed behaviorist , trainer, author columnist and lecturer. He has more than **30** years experience working with dogs including eight years shelter work.” He appears to lack a coherent POV. He rehabilitates, trains and loves pits, but advocates BSL and termination? I can’t seem to locate the bridge between A and B. Nor can I locate the source of the data he presents on his home page. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/514 "2014-01-01T21:13:39Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > He appears to lack a coherent POV. He rehabilitates, trains and loves pits, but advocates BSL and termination? It makes complete sense if you drop the claim he advocates termination. You pulled that one right out of your ass > [@](#): > > I can’t seem to locate the bridge between A and B. Nor can I locate the source of the data he presents on his home page. What data are you talking about ? I’ll try and help you out. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/515 "2014-01-01T21:43:45Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > It makes complete sense if you drop the claim he advocates termination. You pulled that one right out of your ass > . What is supposed to happen to all the dogs that are banned? ---
**Author:** ![LilyoftheField](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@LilyoftheField](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilyoftheField)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/516 "2014-01-01T22:18:21Z")
okay - I’m going to try to come in here as a neutral or semi-neutral pro dog kind of person who is trying to sort out fact from fiction in this thread. There seem to be an awful lot of references to ‘pitbull type’ dogs and this is where I am getting confused. It seems to me that ‘pitbull type’ seems to refer very generally to any number of breeds as well as many mixed breeds which seem to have a few identifying characteristics. That is to say, any dog of medium to large size, muscular, with a short coat, a blunt muzzle and as an added bonus - maybe some flashy coloring. Is this all it takes to identify a ‘pitbull type’? Because there are a whole lot of breeds that meet that criteria! To name just a few - boxers, mastiffs (of which there are many variations), bullmastiffs, boston terriers, labradors, weimeraners, viszlas, rhodesian ridgebacks, presa canario, dalmations, rottweilers…well, I could go on…but there’s way too many similar breeds to bother…! So…any kind of a cross amongst all these breeds could conceivably be identified as a ‘pitbull type’, amirite? Or am I getting this all wrong, and there is more specificity than I am finding here? So…I’m thinking that when you compare percentages, maybe you’re comparing actual pitbull dogs (pitbull terriers, staffordshire terriers) to what may reasonably considered a ‘pitbull type’…well the numbers are going to quite different. So…my question is…what are we considering a ‘pitbull type’ here? That makes a difference! you could say I have a personal interest. 7 years ago, I adopted from a rescue group a dog who they identified as a boston terrier/chihuahua mix. I was looking for a smallish dog, so I thought this would work for me. yeah…as it turns out, I see no chihuahua in him - he is not a small dog - he’s kind of a medium dog! seven years later, I cannot even begin to count how many people have asked me if he is a pitbull. or a boxer. he is neither, as far as I know. but, I don’t see any chihuahua in him either. one thing that I’m damn sure of - if he were to suddenly to lose his mind and attack someone for no damn reason - he would most likely be id’d as a ‘pitbull mix’. which he is not - well as far as I know…but the point is moot, since he is far less likely to suddenly go rogue than your average german shepherd puppy… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/517 "2014-01-01T23:15:28Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > What is supposed to happen to all the dogs that are banned? Are you suggesting that BSL laws will require untold numbers of cute pets to be euthanized ? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/518 "2014-01-01T23:27:58Z")
> [@LilyoftheField](#): > > , since he is far less likely to suddenly go rogue than your average german shepherd puppy… You might not think he’s a pitbull, but if he looks like one and so many people think he might be one, I’d say he’s a “pitbull type”. And I’d caution you to beware of the fact that in most cases of a pitbull attack on a human, it caught the owner completely unawares. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/519 "2014-01-01T23:28:22Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > [https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B\_TQhn0TrPSbdHl1dzJoZjdxSG8/edit](https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_TQhn0TrPSbdHl1dzJoZjdxSG8/edit) So if my math is right, that study found banning Pit Bulls only reduced dog bite hospitalizations about 18%. So what breeds are they going to have to ban next to make people truly safe? ---
**Author:** ![LilyoftheField](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@LilyoftheField](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilyoftheField)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2014, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/520 "2014-01-01T23:58:31Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > You might not think he’s a pitbull, but if he looks like one and so many people think he might be one, I’d say he’s a “pitbull type”. > > And I’d caution you to beware of the fact that in most cases of a pitbull attack on a human, it caught the owner completely unawares. seriously? the fact that a myriad of other breeds can also conform to the ‘pitbull type’ means nothing? do you know what a boston terrier looks like? my dog is supposed to be a boston terrier mix. He is close to the right size at less than 35 lbs., he has the flashy coloring that is seen in boston terriers (as well as boxers and pitbulls). Given that his heritage is a guess, why do you think he is more likely to be pitbull than a boxer or a boston terrier? (many have asked if he is a pitbull - many others have asked if he is a boxer) or does it matter? do you consider both boxers and boston terriers to be ‘pitbull types’ and therefore come under the same caution? so then, its not a matter of breed at all - it’s a matter of type? in which case, you can’t really make any comparison between attacks from ‘pitbull types’ versus the number of ownership of actual pitbulls. do you understand what I’m getting at here? He is short-coated, blunt muzzled and flashy. So you are saying that in effect that makes him a ‘pitbull type’? and if so, do you understand that any of a multiplicity of breeds and the mixes thereof can lead to what you are calling a ‘pitbull type’? That was my question - how do you define a ‘pitbull type’? and how do you differentiate that from so many other short coated, medium to large sized, blunt muzzled and possibly flashy colored dogs??? and just so you know - here is a pic of my dog… > **[ImageShack - Best place for all of your image hosting and image sharing needs](https://imageshack.com/)** > > Unlimited space to host images, easy to use image uploader, albums, photo hosting, sharing, dynamic image resizing on web and mobile. I’m going to guess that in most instances of a dog attack by a family pet, it caught the owners ‘completely unaware’ and that is not limited to pitbulls. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714.md?page=27)