# Pit Bulls (continued) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 8, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714 "2013-10-08T19:18:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/781 "2014-01-09T22:17:13Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > Of course it isn’t worth my time answering your question because you’ll find a single instance in which a method wasn’t successful and use it as evidence it is never successful because you are a moron who believes anecdotes trump data. > > Authorities regularly use capture poles, tranquilizers, cages, leashes you know the type of equipment animal control regularly uses to detain dogs as well as bears. AC is notorious for not showing up for HOURS in emergencies - after hours they don’t exist - weekends & holidays - forget about it [http://www.wkrn.com/story/18919032/rutherford-co-residents-upset-over-animal-control-response-time](http://www.wkrn.com/story/18919032/rutherford-co-residents-upset-over-animal-control-response-time) AC took 2 hours to respond - while human is attack by pit bull “Broeker admitted his residents have difficulty reaching representatives during emergencies and that officers often respond hours later, if at all.” Indianapolis: (Indy animal control’s response time is an average of 23 hours) [http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009902090365](http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2009902090365) "After a pit bull showed up on Cathi Wahnsiedler’s front lawn, she called the city and waited patiently for animal control. An officer arrived – three days later. In the meantime, the Wahnsiedlers, aware that a Northside woman had nearly lost her legs to a pit bull recently, used a side door. Their daughter Lucy, 8, was forbidden to play in the snow outside their Northeastside home. Cathi told her elderly father not to visit. She and her husband took turns calling the city for assistance. Indianapolis dog catchers respond much more quickly when alerted about attacks, but even then the average response time is 45 minutes What next? Butterfly nets for police to capture armed felons? Laughable When minutes count, AC is just hours away ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/782 "2014-01-09T22:26:20Z")
It’s clear once again writing a reply to you is a waste of fucking time. You’ve failed to demonstrate why it is a relavent statistic as to a dogs danger whether it was shot or not. > [@boytyperanma](#): > > I understand the police are not animal control. I don’t even expect them to carry specialized equipment for animals. I think some instances of police using firearms to put down a dangerous animal are justified. What I don’t believe is a dog is more dangerous because it was shot verse apprehended with a catch pole. Therefore whether a officer shot a dog or not is a statistic that has no logic or reason in determining the danger of an animal. Am I to believe the police only use firearms on dogs that pose a mortal threat to them? There are numerous accounts of officers shooting dogs that posed no threat to anyone. > > Either you are really fucking stupid and/or you are a liar. > > I believe you are both. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/783 "2014-01-10T01:23:10Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > It’s clear once again writing a reply to you is a waste of fucking time. You’ve failed to demonstrate why it is a relavent statistic as to a dogs danger whether it was shot or not. After suggesting that a specific group, among which are some who have been posting in this thread, should go hang themselves, I suggest that everyone stops responding to all attempts at turning the Pit into a blog. Maybe Ms. Lynn’s minion will finally get banned for _that_. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/784 "2014-01-10T01:55:01Z")
> [@cougar58](#): > > Me thinks the ideal rope / harness design for a nutter is one that has a harness for the pit bull, 5 feet of rope, and a noose for the nutters neck at the other end [Moderating] Wishing death on other posters is against board rules. This is an official warning - your posting privileges are under review. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/785 "2014-01-10T02:23:42Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > **Shayna** , I’ve read **Stoid** ’s link and plenty others, both for and against PBs. That said, I’m afraid the verdict is in – Pitbulls (and mixes of) are undoubtedly the most dangerous breed (or mix if you prefer) of dog out there. > > Numbers are in – and have been for quite some time – and there’s no denying that both, the breed has degenerated into a (mostly) dangerous and unpredictable one. Now, I’ll be the first to say that breed degeneration has affected tens of breeds – one only take a look at what they’ve done to the original GS to what it has become today. A sad case of great dog bred into “aesthetic standards” that not only have disfigured the breed but brought on any number of illnesses – hip dysplasia being number one. And so it goes for many other breeds. > > Here is one of many articles detailing the process: [**How a century of breeding ‘improvement’ has turned once-healthy dogs into deformed animals**](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2519314/How-century-breeding-improvement-turned-healthy-dogs-deformed-animals.html) – a simple search will find you many more, videos included. > > What I am getting at is simply the fact that Pitbulls were originally raised – as their name suggests – to be very tough, gamey dogs, whose original job was to simply engage Bulls in a ring and/or range. But by the same token, they also had a very strong bond to their owners & family. Unfortunately, as in many of the other cases mentioned, that last part has been “bred-out” of many a Pit simply because dog-fighting has become big-business: [**Dogfighting a booming business, experts say**](http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/07/18/dog.fighting/) > > So yes, I can certainly believe that many a Pit is exactly as yours describe – but, OTOH, facts are facts, and one of them is that today’s Pitbulls’ are, by far, the most dangerous canine known to man. Would I ban the breed? Tough question. But if things don’t change, why yes, yes I would. For very few owners bother (as with most dogs) to find out their pedigree – and again, as things stand today, you are just as likely to get/adopt a lethal dog than you are a Pit that “stays true to origins.” Sad thing is, most owners, as we’ve seen and read over and over don’t realize as much until it’s too late… > > As I mentioned up-thread, I am a dog lover myself, but don’t particularly care for toy breeds. I want a DOG, not a shrunk version of one. Thus I’ve owned both a GSD & a Dobie. I also spent countless hours both training them and, obviously, enjoying them. Now, I welcome you to look at the mauling stats of both of them over say, the past 40 years and see how they match to the Pitbulls. Simply no comparison. And mind you, neither GDSs nor Dobermans are dogs to be trifled with. > > In any event, stay well, enjoy & train your pet well – honestly hope you never come to regret it. > > PS – IMHO, no dog like a Doberman (fixed of course, as any dog should be). They’ve well earned their nickname as “The Cadillac of Dogs.” Had her house trained in three days – of course it meant taking her out @ 3/4 A.M. for two months or so for as you well know 8 weeks old puppies can’t hold their bladder long. After that? Never an “accident,” other than a puke or two due to her willingness to eat anything in sight – which was also corrected later on. > > And yes, I know, just sheer anecdotal & biased ‘evidence’…but I was so damn proud of her! :::::le sigh::: Well spoken ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/786 "2014-01-10T02:25:28Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Two part question. > > First, [**Kerry Alun Evans**](http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/man-accused-being-involved-dog-6436767) is a proven liar as per your own cite. So it is a meaningless article in so far as the question you ask. > > Secondly, as Dade County (Fla) & others have proven: > > [**Florida Citizens Killed by Pit Bulls**](http://blog.dogsbite.org/2012/02/attempt-to-overturn-miami-dade-pit-bull.html) > > – bolding mine. > > Given the above facts, it appears the legislation/breed-ban does indeed work. Unless you can cite similar (breed ratio included of course) figures for dog-attacks deaths in Dade NOT attributed to Pitbulls. In so far as I know there are none. > > That said, sure, no stopping a Michael Vick’s type from breeding some other dog to take over…but isn’t that something to be dealt with at such a time when it actually happens? Not dealing in hypothetical thought experiments though I admit your question makes sense…hypothetically. > > Perhaps another thread? Well written. You could have substituted Denver for Miami, as well as many other locales. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/787 "2014-01-10T02:26:22Z")
[Junior Moderating] That is a specific wish of death? I thought it is more general and just an attempt to be humorously hyperbolic. Then I considered the poster. Carry on. [/Junior Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/788 "2014-01-10T02:31:34Z")
> [@Clipper222](#): > > I, for one, appreciate the OP’s efforts in this thread. I don’t know why so many people are so aggressively resistant to the arguments being made. The debate over the danger of pitbulls is really absurd. They were created to fight and kill. Dogs are particularly good examples of the influence of instinct. Result? Lots of horrific attacks. The apologists with their bullshit excuses are perfect examples of the type of person this kind of dog appeals to. I think a lot of them get some kind of thrill out of living with a dangerous entity the same way lion and bear guys do. > > I personally witnessed my cousin’s pitbull leap up and attack a passing toddler while on a beach camping trip. The dog grabbed the child’s head and began the mad shake while people scrambled to stop it. Fortunately, the child was wearing a coat with a thick hood up. This was an unprovoked attack. The pitbull was merely responding to its companion, which was an equally unpleasant bulldog that had snapped at the kid out of pure ill temper. Attack instinct. > > More recently, the first love of my life had the end of her nose bitten off and her cheek torn open across her entire face by a friend’s pitbull that she was cuddling. Apparently, it got startled by someone across the room. Fucking attack instinct. > > There’s no excuse for continuing to create these things and the darling of the white trash community should be allowed to die out. Imagine that. One SDMB member who has witnesses 2 unprovoked pit attacks on humans. Very well written. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/789 "2014-01-10T04:27:18Z")
> [@cougar58](#): > > Well written. > > You could have substituted Denver for Miami, as well as many other locales. Thank you & sure. Which is why I wrote “others” and cited the cases I did. But basically my point is/was that IME with much-maligned breeds it really did come down to the owner. Again, I spent tons of time – which I knew I was able to afford prior to their purchase; these were pure-breeds which I investigated thoroughly prior to purchase – with my dogs. They were never chained or otherwise abused…but from day one they were made aware _I_ was the one not to be trifled with. As a result I had a combined 15 (GDS fell to dysplasia@ 3 1/2 years old) years of the _most predictable_ dogs ever. Never had I once a scare in terms of aggression, human nor animal related. All I had to say was “stay” or a simple pull on their collar for them to do just that. To the point where they just stay behind me if any aggressive dog would confront them – yet I knew if I said “attack” they’d do so until they killed or died. I was fortunate enough to survive a wild dog attack by doing just so with my Doberman – who hadn’t done a thing until given the command. This is the way I played – amongst many other ways of course – with my girl almost daily: [**Vicious Doberman Attack**](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9FBJB5Adfk). A curt ‘Quieta!’ (or ‘stop’ in English would amaze my friends and family when I said it, for it was an almost _pre-reaction_ it was so quick) & almost family like affection to follow, 110 aroused to minus zero in a nanosecond each and every time. She was the same way towards strangers once I said it was OK and had them throw her a ball or two. Took her to hospitals more than once (old and young alike) where she caused great joy…though I did no special training for it. Guess she was just a people person, and along with my training and confidence, she just loved me as I loved her. RIP, Silky. You’ll always be in my heart and mind. As for Tyson, my GDS from much earlier, I both didn’t have the skills that I had when I got Silky, nor was I as patient. Pedigreed as all get-out and paid as much, must admit I wasn’t ready to jump from my Mom’s poodle to a GDS. Any chance he had to get one over me, he would – just like a child. Separation anxiety was a big one…I’d leave for the night and I was sure to come back to a destroyed room, no matter which one it was. That said, we both got to know each other better, and at or about a year old, Tyson was as good and trusty as Silky was – at three months. My nephews, 9 & 11 at the time would boss him around like there was no tomorrow – though I made sure I was always there. Button line, I always felt I was in control of both dogs – took Tyson lots more, but that could have been on me – and they _never_, ever let me down. Could I say the same about Pits? Doubt it. First because I simply don’t like the dog. And secondly and most importantly, because the stats are out. For the record, I am against guns as well. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/790 "2014-01-10T18:56:38Z")
Just to interrupt with a moment of cute, check out the [Chicago Blackhawks 2014 puppy calendar.](http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/01/chicago-blackhawks-2014-puppy-calendar/) 🙂 You can now go back to your regularly scheduled bickering. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/791 "2014-01-10T20:21:39Z")
First, a moment of silence for cougar 58… Okay, now that the real nutter is gone, I think it’s time to summarize the problem with this debate: we been focusing on the wrong things. All this back qnd forth about details, emotionally. On both sides. Public policy, regulation, and law should not be based on niggling details and appeals to emotion. It must be based on sound data and reliable science used to calculate the “acceptable risk”. This is the _ **standard** _ way the government considers banning a product or service or substance. How many people are likely to die? So start there. How does being killed by a dog, _ **any dog at all to start with** _, stack up against other causes of death as far as lifetime risk? My googling tells me that without considering anything else, just raw calculation of population, deaths, and life expectancy, it’s somewhere between 1-150,000 and 1-300,000, depending on who you ask and hte numbers you are working with. That’s over a lifetime, by any dog, without considering any other factors. Then we start filtering to be more accurate in the assessment. For instance, bike accidents cause thousands of deaths every year, resulting in a much higher liklihood of dying from a bike accident than from a dog attack. But if you never ride a bike in your entire life, then your risk drops to zero. With dogs, one of the biggest factors affecting an individual’s lifetime risk of dying from a dog attack is whether they choose to live or work with them. If you are never around them, your chance of being killed by one drops _almost_ to zero. (Since dogs are mobile and can come to you, whereas a bike can’t attack you…). Age is another. Once you are older than about 15, your risk drops enormously. Then there’s a number of other factors that have a smaller but still meaningful impact on the risk. Finally we get to breed, which cuts the risk again, even if we operate on the assumption that every single report of killer dogs being pit bulls, they are still not responsible for all of the (extremely rare) deaths. Someone else can crunch these numbers more precisely, but I think it’s extremely reasonable to state that for people who do not themselves choose to own “pit bull type” dogs or associate with such dogs willingly, the risk of death over a lifetime is easily 1-in-however-many-millions-suits-you. I think 1-100 million is probably true. But even if it is merely 1/million, that is considered an acceptable risk by pretty much any standard. The risk is obviously higher for those of us who choose to put ourselves in the path of pit bulls, in the same way the risk is far higher of dying from guns if you own one, tobacco if you smoke it, ATVs if you ride them, etc. But I’m an American, and as such I have a great deal of freedom to do many things that endanger my life while posing an extremely low risk to yours if you are making different choices than I am. It is not reasonable to expect, demand, or seek legislation to try and achieve zero possibility of death or serious injury from a pit bull or anything else that you choose not to have in your life but others do. This is the only thing that matters. Some of you are apparently very scared of pit bulls and would cross the street to avoid them. You are entitled. But in the context of our legal system, our history, our behavior generally and the actual statistics, you have absolutely no leg to stand on to seek to ban any breed or type, _ **because the stats do not support you.** _ That is the only genuine way to argue this honestly. Quibbling about all the rest of it is useful for many purposes in regard to the dangers OF dogs and TO dogs and how to reduce them, but it’s total masturbatory bullshit when it comes to arguing for the legitimacy of banning, cuz it just ain’t legitimate. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/792 "2014-01-10T20:34:51Z")
Word. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/793 "2014-01-10T22:13:32Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Word. Not quite. Forget the rest of the dribble: “I am an American” WTF? Invade nations and/or states that have breed-bans? Talk about nuts… ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/794 "2014-01-10T22:24:05Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Not quite. Forget the rest of the dribble: “I am an American” WTF? Invade nations and/or states that have breed-bans? Talk about nuts… 😕 The only reason I framed it like that was to qualify that I was and am speaking about American laws. I often forget that the SDMB (like the internet itself, of course) has an international membership, and I have very little to no knowledge of how it works elsewhere. What you meant above escapes me utterly…invasions? How did you get _ **that** _? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/795 "2014-01-10T22:52:16Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > 😕 > The only reason I framed it like that was to qualify that I was and am speaking about American laws. I often forget that the SDMB (like the internet itself, of course) has an international membership, and I have very little to no knowledge of how it works elsewhere. > > What you meant above escapes me utterly…invasions? How did you get _ **that** _? “Land of The Free.” And yes, you remain quite confused – trust it’s not catching. As with your pet. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/796 "2014-01-11T00:00:00Z")
Ah yes, when you have nothing of substance in reply, fall back on that old standby, random sneering. Yes, we’re all very impressed, clearly my point is defeated. I surrender. There, all better now? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/797 "2014-01-11T02:58:31Z")
You still haven’t apologized for being reasonable, **Stoid**. This isn’t fucking GD. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/798 "2014-01-11T03:01:39Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Not quite. Forget the rest of the dribble: “I am an American” WTF? Invade nations and/or states that have breed-bans? Talk about nuts… > [@RedFury](#): > > “Land of The Free.” And yes, you remain quite confused – trust it’s not catching. As with your pet. I know a thing or two about incoherent PUI and I’m curious about why you are back from Happy Hour so early. Did they throw you out? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/799 "2014-01-11T03:02:34Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Ah yes, when you have nothing of substance in reply, fall back on that old standby, random sneering. Yes, we’re all very impressed, clearly my point is defeated. I surrender. > > There, all better now? But of course.[Pitbull factual attacks](https://www.causes.com/actions/1753697-fatal-pit-bull-attacks-sharply-rise-in-2013) notwithstanding. Have a nut – or three. On me. You are an utter and complete idiot. Not that it’s news to anyone who’s been here for a while. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/800 "2014-01-11T03:06:45Z")
Cougar sock in 3 . . . 2. . . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714.md?page=41)