# Pit Bulls (continued) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 8, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714 "2013-10-08T19:18:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/901 "2014-01-20T16:49:58Z")
What about those of us who have no kids? Are we still allowed to have a “pit bull” dog? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/902 "2014-01-20T19:02:48Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > you are so happy with your dog. Your dog is affectionate, improves your life beyond belief, etc. etc… > > My point is that so many other people have thought the same thing until that tragic day when the dog or dogs kill their kid. > > If pit bulls were a commercial product, like a toy, or drug, or food item, the number of deaths associated with them would have been far more than enough to issue a complete recall. We should not accept that risk just because we love dogs. Actually, this has been **MY** point all along, and my research tells me you are wrong. If you disagree you will have to demonstrate it with more than your opinion, since I have provided cites already showing that you are wrong. Go back about a week. I have an appointment, back later. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/903 "2014-01-20T22:28:57Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > you are so happy with your dog. Your dog is affectionate, improves your life beyond belief, etc. etc… > > My point is that so many other people have thought the same thing until that tragic day when the dog or dogs kill their kid. > > If pit bulls were a commercial product, like a toy, or drug, or food item, the number of deaths associated with them would have been far more than enough to issue a complete recall. We should not accept that risk just because we love dogs. Product misuse is not grounds for banning a product. Kids die every year when parents leave kids unattended in a hot car we aren’t considering banning cars. I’m all for dog licenses coming with a manual. That includes warnings ‘like don’t leave with unattended children’ ‘Don’t inflict pain on your animal for your own entertainment’ I also think it should be a requirement all dogs are spayed or neutered unless you receive a harder to obtain license. I’d be completely against dogs being sold as a toys. Aspirin causes deaths per year 213 per year only about half are from intentional misuse. Hot dogs cause about 70 deaths in children per year. It is the number one choking hazard for children. With aspirin and hot dogs both killing more people than all dogs combined I’m not convinced by your argument that the number of deaths is sufficient for recall. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/904 "2014-01-21T00:11:30Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > Product misuse is not grounds for banning a product. Kids die every year when parents leave kids unattended in a hot car we aren’t considering banning cars. > I’m all for dog licenses coming with a manual. That includes warnings ‘like don’t leave with unattended children’ ‘Don’t inflict pain on your animal for your own entertainment’ > > I also think it should be a requirement all dogs are spayed or neutered unless you receive a harder to obtain license. > > I’d be completely against dogs being sold as a toys. > > Aspirin causes deaths per year 213 per year only about half are from intentional misuse. > Hot dogs cause about 70 deaths in children per year. It is the number one choking hazard for children. > With aspirin and hot dogs both killing more people than all dogs combined I’m not convinced by your argument that the number of deaths is sufficient for recall. Yes, some things get more or less attention than they should. Most lettuce is wonderful, safe and clean as it comes from the market. Some lettuce is awash in e-coli or some other food poisoning bacteria. People get sick, die, there is a recall. Not of all lettuce, just the stuff from the place they pin down as causing the problem. They don’t ban lettuce, but they figure out what went wrong and correct it. Used to be, I ran a plant that filled cylinders with a mix of nitrogen and oxygen to use as artificial compressed air, mostly for folks wearing backpacks in hazardous areas. We insisted that each cylinder at the job site be tested for the right amount of oxygen, something like 19% to 21%. ’ If one customer claimed they got a reading out of that range, we recalled every compressed air cylinder pumped in the plant that day, suspended the pumper pending investigation, and ceased production until answers were clear. The dog is sold by a breeder, or is rescued from a center, and later proves to be aggressive. I say, and I think you would, too, that the matter should be investigated far more deeply than saying ‘how terrible, what a tragedy, I hope their next pittie is not as dangerous.’ We need aspirin, cars and hotdogs. Every one of those products, though, could be improved, made safer. Why do we insist that dogs are dogs are dogs and we have to have them and we have to accept the fact they will kill some of us, 40 or more around the world every year??? We don’t have to, because you know very well that we don’t actually ‘need’ them. We certainly don’t ‘need’ large ones in breeds that kill. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/905 "2014-01-21T00:15:05Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > What about those of us who have no kids? Are we still allowed to have a “pit bull” dog? Sure, if you make sure they are neutered, you treat them and train them properly, and you don’t let them anywhere around any of my grandkids. Otherwise, do what you want to with them. Sleep with one on each side to make you feel safe, like you have someone depending on you for their livelihood. Like a child. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/906 "2014-01-21T00:36:17Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > If pit bulls were a commercial product, like a toy, or drug, or food item, the number of deaths associated with them would have been far more than enough to issue a complete recall. We should not accept that risk just because we love dogs. I don’t think so. There’s a lot of stuff we don’t ban that is a lot more dangerous. Like guns, for one. Or [hot dogs](http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2010-02-22-1Achoke22_ST_N.htm) for that matter. (Nor do I really support banning either.) The only death in my neighborhood attributed to a dog since I’ve ever lived here (since 1978, on and off) was due to a labrador, and I live in a neighborhood where the most popular dog is a pit bull. I mean, what do you want the solution to be? To go around, pull 6+ milliion pit bull type dogs from families and kill them all? I don’t think that’s a workable solution. The vast, vast, vast majority of these dogs are not problematic. As I said before, I have no problem with stricter enforcement/licensing of pit bull owners, training of said owners, leash laws, and I have nothing against mandatory spaying or neutering, either. And, of course, I would not let my pit bull anywhere near your grandkids. But I wouldn’t take that chance with any large dog. Out of courtesy, when I walk my dog, I move out of the way if I see children up ahead, just to ease the minds of the parents that are walking with them. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/907 "2014-01-21T03:25:29Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > The dog is sold by a breeder, or is rescued from a center, and later proves to be aggressive. I say, and I think you would, too, that the matter should be investigated far more deeply than saying ‘how terrible, what a tragedy, I hope their next pittie is not as dangerous.’ I agree actions should be taken concerning aggressive dogs. I think there are a number of proactive solutions that can be taken to minimize risk. I don’t think attempting to ban or blame a breed is a workable solution. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/908 "2014-01-21T03:43:20Z")
Okay, I’m cool with that. Now if the stray dogs would stop coming by to look for affection and handouts, I’d be even happier. Let’s have a beer sometime. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/909 "2014-01-21T04:49:01Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Sorry, remind me again - how many kids have been killed by golden retrievers in the last few years? “Dozens.” :D:D ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/910 "2014-01-21T10:10:57Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > “Dozens.” :D:D Hilarious. If by ‘dozens’ you mean ‘countable on one hand with digits left over’, even funnier. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/911 "2014-01-21T15:50:48Z")
Ok, it looks like this thread might finally be easing to a close. Don’t anybody fuck it up!!! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/912 "2014-01-21T21:10:58Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Ok, it looks like this thread might finally be easing to a close. Don’t anybody fuck it up!!! 😉 Ok then. now the master plan can begin. It’s time to start replacing the nuns at orphanages with pit bulls! They can provide a balance of love and stern discipline the nuns just haven’t managed yet. Oh and I got some Wisdom Panel results for my dog [[Album] I'm looking for guesses as to this guys breed(s) he's 85 pounds ![](https://i.imgur.com/7g42ByJ.jpeg?fb "I") ](https://imgur.com/a/JCF5e) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/913 "2014-01-21T22:02:10Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > Ok then. now the master plan can begin. It’s time to start replacing the nuns at orphanages with pit bulls! They can provide a balance of love and stern discipline the nuns just haven’t managed yet. > > Oh and I got some Wisdom Panel results for my dog > > [http://imgur.com/a/JCF5e](http://imgur.com/a/JCF5e) How funny! I just did that and got the results three days ago. Turns out my Zuk is, by any reasonable standard, whether genetic or looks-wise, a “pit bull,” although yours is much more AmStaff than mine (wow, one whole line is posited to be AmStaff, from your picture.) On the great grand parents line, from left to right, we got: AmStaff, AmStaff, Bullmastiff, Mixed Breed-------Bull Terrier, Mixed Breed, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Mixed Breed. As for the “mixed breeds” the guesses are Wire Fox Terrier, German Shepherd, German pinscher, Boxer, and Great Pyrenees from highest detection threshold to lowest (although it says it may or may not be any of these, and it’s highly unlikely it’s all of these.) At any rate, it appears to be all (or almost all) terriers and bull dogs. I expected boxer to feature more prominently. I also wouldn’t have been surprised if labrador or pointer had shown up, given some of his behaviors, but nope. Given his weight (65 lbs) , which is a little high for an in-shape American Pit Bull Terrier/American Staffordshire Terrier, I did expect something like a mastiff or an American Bulldog somewhere in there, and there was. (ETA: Actually, it looks like 65 is on the upper end of a normal AmStaff range, so that guess appears just to be lucky.) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/914 "2014-01-21T22:27:28Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > I agree actions should be taken concerning aggressive dogs. I think there are a number of proactive solutions that can be taken to minimize risk. I don’t think attempting to ban or blame a breed is a workable solution. Very good. But can’t we do _something_ to eliminate the plague of Cardigan Welsh Corgis? ---
**Author:** ![LilyoftheField](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@LilyoftheField](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilyoftheField)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/915 "2014-01-21T22:41:10Z")
okay…I’m being selfish here, I admit it…and I still just want to know…if pitbull legislation is passed in my community, do I have to worry about my mixed breed dog? Do I still have to be concerned that some paranoid types might consider him a pitbull mix? Because there have been people in my community who have asked that question - is that a pitbull? If I can dig up the paperwork from more than seven years ago, in which he was id’d as a boston terrrier/chihuahua mix, is that sufficient proof that he’s not a pitbull? Do I need DNA? How is this legislation going to be enforced? As a taxpayer and a law abiding citizen, I need to know this! I need to know if you are going to try to take away my companion of many years, because you think there’s an outside chance that he might be dangerous! I need to know this! You need to define your parameters! Don’t fucking stand back there all aloof and superior 'cuz you don’t know any pitbulls or pitbull mixes or even dogs may potentially have some pitbull in their recent geneology…worry about your neighbors! If you think your neighbor has a pitbull mix or a husky mix or a rottweiler mix or a shepherd mix or a dobie mix or a mastiff mix or a lab mix or whatever the fuck mix you think it is - and you think that dog is dangerous - report the damn dog - get some authorities involved! Because, otherwise, I don’t get what your issue is… ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/916 "2014-01-21T23:23:16Z")
> [@LilyoftheField](#): > > How is this legislation going to be enforced? Typically, as I’ve seen it, it’s pretty broad. The Denver legislation is pretty typical: “A “pit bull” … is defined as any dog that is an American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, or any dog displaying the majority of physical traits of any one (1) or more of the above breeds, or any dog exhibiting those distinguishing characteristics which substantially conform to the standards established by the American Kennel Club or United Kennel Club for any of the above breeds.” I’m not aware of any enforcement organization that uses DNA as evidence for whether it is a pit bull or not, nor how much of the banned breeds it would have to possess in its lineage to be legally defined as a pit bull (is it a “one drop” rule?). Basically, it’s “if it looks mostly like a pit bull, it’s a pit bull.” Some legislation expands the list of specific dogs to include bull terriers (which don’t really look like pit bulls. Think Spuds McKenzie, or if that reference is too old, the Target dog.) Also, American bull dogs are sometimes lopped into the legislation. For example, see Yakima’s extremely broad definition: ““Pit bull dog” means any pit bull terrier. “Pit bull terrier” means any American pit bull terrier, Staffordshire bull terrier, American bulldog or American Staffordshire terrier breed of dog or any mixed breed of dog which contains as an element of its breeding the breed of American pit bull terrier, Staffordshire bull terrier, American bulldog or American Staffordshire terrier so as to be identifiable as partially of the breed American pit bull terrier, Staffordshire bull terrier, American bulldog or American Staffordshire terrier.” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/917 "2014-01-22T00:08:44Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > Ok then. now the master plan can begin. It’s time to start replacing the nuns at orphanages with pit bulls! They can provide a balance of love and stern discipline the nuns just haven’t managed yet. > > Oh and I got some Wisdom Panel results for my dog > > [http://imgur.com/a/JCF5e](http://imgur.com/a/JCF5e) By the way, handsome doggie you got there! I got around to uploading the results. [The main report](http://www.pawinskiphotography.com/public/zukbreed/zukbreed.jpg) [The mixed breed page](http://www.pawinskiphotography.com/public/zukbreed/zukbreed2.jpg) So both of our dogs have strong pit bull genetics, but neither is necessarily more than 50% pit bull, depending on your definition. Yours has exactly 50% pit bull genetics (through the AmStaff), unless one of the “mixed breeds” throws it over the line. Mine is unambiguously 3/8 breeds that are always classified as pit bulls in the US (the AmStaff and the Staffordshire bull terrier.) Then you have 1/8 bull terrier, and 1/8 bullmastiff, which can be lopped into the “pit bull type” dogs category, depending on how broad you want it to be. To keep things simple for insurance companies, vets, boarding/daycare facilities, guests, I throw “pit bull” out there for worst case scenario. I don’t try to tone it down or confuse people by calling him an “American Staffordshire terrier mix.” Even if technically genetically he can be proven to be minority pit bull (and, assuming the test is fairly accurate, which is a big assumption, it can, depending on what breeds you want to include in the “pit bull terrier” mix), most people will consider him one when they see him (except for the ones who think he’s a brindle boxer, for some reason) so life is easier that way. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/918 "2014-01-22T03:35:33Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > Oh and I got some Wisdom Panel results for my dog > > [http://imgur.com/a/JCF5e](http://imgur.com/a/JCF5e) Did you see how much Sealyham Terrier blood it has? My god, it’s a monster! And Toy Manchester Terrier? Keep it away from the Puppy Uppers! ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/919 "2014-01-22T12:39:13Z")
> **[Memorial Fundraising - Start a Fundraiser](https://www.gofundme.com/start/memorial-fundraising)** > > Get help paying for a funeral, memorial, and other end of life expenses with funeral fundraising on GoFundMe. right there in Illinois. Never leave a child alone with a dog, esp. a pit bull. In fact, if a pit bull decided to attack Kara, and you were standing right there, could you have stopped it from mauling her? anecdotal stuff says ‘no, once they attack…’ this is the sort of thing that brings out the Ban Them people, and why it is so hard to overcome the emotional response of having a child killed viciously. How can anyone hope to overcome this emotion with some form of ‘all dogs bite, it isn’t the dog’s fault, never leave a child alone with a dog’, and not have people say, “Why don’t we just ban the damned dogs, that will take care of the problem.” ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/920 "2014-01-22T15:34:24Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > [Start A Memorial Fundraiser - Memorial Fundraising Platform](http://www.youcaring.com/memorial-fundraiser/in-memory-of-kara/128133) > > right there in Illinois. > Never leave a child alone with a dog, esp. a pit bull. The children weren’t left alone with the dog. > [@](#): > > The child suffered massive blood loss and several bites to the head, neck and arms, Kimmerling said. > > ``` > According to media reports, the girl and her two-year-old sister, Kaylee, were at home being watched by a grandmother when at least two pit bulls attacked her. > > Her grandmother tried unsuccessfully to get her away from the dogs, then concentrated on protecting the younger girl. > > ``` [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714.md?page=47)