# Pit Bulls (continued) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 8, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714 "2013-10-08T19:18:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/161 "2013-11-21T13:34:44Z")
> [@Rhiannon8404](#): > > Excellent, because if you think you can tell my dog is shitty and I’m a shitty owner, just by glancing at us, we would appreciate staying as far away from you as possible. I can’t ‘tell’ if you’re a shitty owner at a glance, you dumb fuck. But I can\*'t tell if you aren’t either\*. One would assume bad owners would be evenly distributed among the breeds, but if a) pits account for the majority if ‘chewed to death by dog’ fatalities, and b) you insist that the breed itself is really just a peach-dandy loving friendly ol’ breed of dog’, then c) there must be an -awful lot of \*really really \*shitty owners for there to be so many loving, friendly pits turned in to land sharks, so d) yes, there would certainly appear to be a considerably higher likelihood of you being a really really shitty owner. So when I see shitty owner you and your shitty dog coming down the street, I’m going to error on the side of ‘my child not getting chewed to death’. I’m glad you like your dog of choice, and you seem quite happy exposing your family to the risk. More power to ya’, just keep your dog away from me and mine. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/162 "2013-11-21T13:37:54Z")
> [@EmilyG](#): > > Confirmation bias much? > > Confesssion: I love pit bulls. But don’t get me started on miniature schnauzers…they may not ever maul people, but boy are they annoying. Kind of like posters who get too riled up in Great Debates. Hey, there’s a reason I stay right the hell out of GD. ANECDOTE: We have cute little gerbil-esque dogs. They’ll annoy you to death long before a pitbull could even tear your arm all the way off. We had a pair of burglars killed by cuteness just last month. Did anyone rise up in arms then? Did anyone start a petition? Or a pit thread? (Just shows the “libtard confirmation bias of the hive mind here”…) ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/163 "2013-11-22T11:58:32Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > So are stories of welfare queens and roving gangs of young minority males raping and pillaging everything in sight. > > The point is, stories aren’t always entirely fantasy, but people have a way of weaving stories around a small kernel of truth. Human brains love a good story. They help make sense of a world with very little sense. > > The problem is that our brains bias towards good stories than objective reasoning. Stories might keep adding up because it’s what is really happening. But usually, stories add up because of confirmation bias. We hear something that sounds reasonable and everything is viewed through the lens of reality presented by that story. > > That’s why we have science and standards for objectivity. What you have here is a bunch of anecdotes and enforcement based on anecdotes, which is only a small step up from passing laws based on urban legends (which has also happened - as mentioned above, human beings are good at making decisions based on subjective, irrational criteria). I don’t think that when you can easily find stories every day from all over the world reported by reputable news organizations that you can easily call them ‘anecdotal’. Not unless you are tuned to ‘anti-confirmantion-bias’. People do often notice and hear those things that confirm their beliefs, no matter the topic…but if a list of stories from every English speaking country about their dog problems is under your nose, don’t try to say they are ‘anecdotal’. State and federal government health and safety organizations focus on finding and evaluating risks to the population. The reports they publish all ‘confirm’ the assertion that pit bulls cause and disproportionate amount of human misery, relative to their numbers in the population of dogs kept in households across the US. They bend over all directions to be sure there is nothing but scientific method in their studies. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/164 "2013-11-23T01:32:39Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > So are stories of welfare queens and roving gangs of young minority males raping and pillaging everything in sight. > > The point is, stories aren’t always entirely fantasy, but people have a way of weaving stories around a small kernel of truth. Human brains love a good story. They help make sense of a world with very little sense. > > The problem is that our brains bias towards good stories than objective reasoning. Stories might keep adding up because it’s what is really happening. But usually, stories add up because of confirmation bias. We hear something that sounds reasonable and everything is viewed through the lens of reality presented by that story. > > That’s why we have science and standards for objectivity. What you have here is a bunch of anecdotes and enforcement based on anecdotes, which is only a small step up from passing laws based on urban legends (which has also happened - as mentioned above, human beings are good at making decisions based on subjective, irrational criteria). ^^^^^^^^^ This. Xinfinity. > [@DragonAsh](#): > > One would assume bad owners would be evenly distributed among the breeds, but if a) pits account for the majority if ‘chewed to death by dog’ fatalities, and b) you insist that the breed itself is really just a peach-dandy loving friendly ol’ breed of dog’, \*\*then c) there must be an -awful lot of _really really shitty owners for there to be so many loving, friendly pits turned in to land sharks,_ The bolded part is the core flaw in your thinking. Compared to the total number of pit bulls, much less the total number of dogs, period, the number of pit bulls inflicting serious damage and death on human beings is very small. There are approximately 83 million dogs in the U.S. There were 34 fatalities from dog bites in 2012. 20 of those were attributed to dogs believed to be pit bulls. So out of the 83 million dogs in the US in 2012, 20 killed people. Now multiply the number of dogs by the number of human-dog encounters that happened in 2012 - it’s a very safe assumption that the 83 million dogs certainly encountered and interacted with _at least_ 1 human being \*at least once \*every day for 365 days. And that is, of course, a ridiculously conservative estimate…but it still gives us more than **30 billion** encounters between dogs and people wherein the dog could have killed the person, and in fact it happened \*\*20 times out of at least 30 billion possible times. \*\* \*\*\*That is LESS than a ONE IN A BILLION risk. \*\*\* Sit with that for a little while. And if you still feel that it is rational and prudent for you to fear pit bulls, then you need to go and spend every penny you have on the lottery, because your chances of winning it are vastly better, statistically, than the chances of you getting killed by a pit bull, so why not? And if you continue to think in this manner, then you have a whole lot of work ahead of you keeping your child safe… it’s exhausting to think about what will be required of you to prevent your child’s accidental death…NEVER let her ride a bicycle, or ride a bus, or ride in a car… or walk anywhere she has to cross the street and be in the path of cars… because all of those things are, again, VASTLY more likely to end up killing or maiming your daughter than her being killed or seriously injured by ANY dog, much less a specific breed… Honestly, I’m no math whiz, but the most basic comprehension of statistics and probabilities should show you that fearing any dog for any reason OTHER than that you have direct knowledge of a specific dog’s potentially dangerous behavior, is completely ridiculous and has absolutely nothing to do with anything resembling a rational understanding of reality. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/165 "2013-11-23T03:26:16Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > . > > Pardon me while me and my family give you and your shitty dog a wide, wide berth. In fact, now that I think about it, if you still insist on giving a wide berth, make sure it doesn’t include things like crossing the street… Since the chances that you and your family are going to be hurt crossing that street to avoid passing near a pit bull and its owner (or a hundred all at once, even!) are orders of magnitude greater than the chances of being hurt by the dogs you are trying to avoid. . ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/166 "2013-11-23T12:49:43Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > In fact, now that I think about it, if you still insist on giving a wide berth, make sure it doesn’t include things like crossing the street… Since the chances that you and your family are going to be hurt crossing that street to avoid passing near a pit bull and its owner (or a hundred all at once, even!) are orders of magnitude greater than the chances of being hurt by the dogs you are trying to avoid. > > . The logic and method are to be commended. Even if you equip yourself with a gun with which to kill the pit bull as it attacks and rips apart your child, the fact is, you, or someone else in your family, is far more likely to be killed by that gun than by a pit bull… So…the only rational way for us all to protect ourselves from the menace of pit bulls…animals that serve no useful purpose, the way that streets do, for example…the best way to protect ourselves is to ban pit bulls. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/167 "2013-11-23T20:28:46Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > The logic and method are to be commended. Even if you equip yourself with a gun with which to kill the pit bull as it attacks and rips apart your child, the fact is, you, or someone else in your family, is far more likely to be killed by that gun than by a pit bull… > > So…the only rational way for us all to protect ourselves from the menace of pit bulls…animals that serve no useful purpose, the way that streets do, for example…the best way to protect ourselves is to > > ban pit bulls. Huh? (By the way, “useful purpose”? Speak for yourself…) ---
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/168 "2013-11-24T03:37:26Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > The logic and method are to be commended. Even if you equip yourself with a gun with which to kill the pit bull as it attacks and rips apart your child, the fact is, you, or someone else in your family, is far more likely to be killed by that gun than by a pit bull… > > So…the only rational way for us all to protect ourselves from the menace of pit bulls…animals that serve no useful purpose, the way that streets do, for example…the best way to protect ourselves is to > > ban pit bulls. You think _banning_ a breed of dog is actually going make it go away? I suppose it might work…in exactly the same way prohibition protected us from the evils of alcohol and banning drugs has ended the drug problem. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/169 "2013-11-24T03:48:50Z")
I think crucible is equating pit bulls and guns, implying that the arguments are identical and presumably fail identically. (I think the comparison fails, not least because just about no one I know of is seeking to ban guns, so there’s that.) ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2013, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/170 "2013-11-24T04:27:52Z")
> [@cougar58](#): > > Well, TomNDeb, thats 3 adults killed by pit bulls in the last 3 days. How far back do we have to search to find a similar streak? Hmmm. Would you believe in the past 2 months, it happened twice? What’s your theory as to why they seem to happen in groups of 3? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/171 "2013-11-25T12:21:19Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > \ Bunch of irrelevant math \ > **Honestly, I’m no math whiz**. No shit, Sherlock; this was embarrassingly evident thanks to your pathetic, hilariously flawed attempt at statistical analysis. Seriously, just put down the shovel. > [@Stoid](#): > > In fact, now that I think about it, if you still insist on giving a wide berth, make sure it doesn’t include things like crossing the street… Since the chances that you and your family are going to be hurt crossing that street to avoid passing near a pit bull and its owner (or a hundred all at once, even!) are orders of magnitude greater than the chances of being hurt by the dogs you are trying to avoid. :rolleyes: You appear to be dumber than 10lbs of shit in a 5lb bag, so this may come as a complete and utter shock to you, but the smart people in the room tend to give dangerous things a wide berth…like, you know, giving cars a wide berth while crossing the street. I’m sure there’s a dog-related analogy we could make in there somewhere… ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/172 "2013-11-25T12:24:43Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > \ Bunch of irrelevant math \ > **Honestly, I’m no math whiz**. No shit, Sherlock; this was embarrassingly evident thanks to your pathetic, hilariously flawed attempt at statistical analysis. Seriously, just put down the shovel. > [@Stoid](#): > > In fact, now that I think about it, if you still insist on giving a wide berth, make sure it doesn’t include things like crossing the street… Since the chances that you and your family are going to be hurt crossing that street to avoid passing near a pit bull and its owner (or a hundred all at once, even!) are orders of magnitude greater than the chances of being hurt by the dogs you are trying to avoid. :rolleyes: You appear to be dumber than 10lbs of shit in a 5lb bag, so this may come as a complete and utter shock to you, but the smart people in the room tend to give dangerous things a wide berth…like, you know, giving cars a wide berth while crossing the street. I’m sure there’s a dog-related analogy we could make in there somewhere… > [@Rhiannon8404](#): > > You think _banning_ a breed of dog is actually going make it go away? I suppose it might work…in exactly the same way prohibition protected us from the evils of alcohol and banning drugs has ended the drug problem. \*Successfully \*banning pits would bring the # of pit-related dog bites & deaths to zero. It would almost certainly reduce the total number of dog-bite fatalities. Like prohibition and the drug war, however, the problem is there’s no realistic way to make the ban actually work. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/173 "2013-11-25T21:11:50Z")
Here’s a pit bull with the patience of a saint, more will power than I’ll ever have, and the most level head you’ll ever see. > **[This Dog Learned To 'Buy' Treats With Leaves And Has Been Doing It For Years](https://www.distractify.com/animals/2018/04/27/BmqCo/dog-buys-treats-leaves)** > > Because money grows on trees for dogs. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/174 "2013-11-25T21:40:33Z")
Holy shit - a vase full of plants + water? That IS a patient dog!! ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/175 "2013-11-25T21:59:24Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > No shit, Sherlock; this was embarrassingly evident thanks to your pathetic, hilariously flawed attempt at statistical analysis. Seriously, just put down the shovel. > > :rolleyes: > > You appear to be dumber than 10lbs of shit in a 5lb bag, so this may come as a complete and utter shock to you, but the smart people in the room tend to give dangerous things a wide berth…like, you know, giving cars a wide berth while crossing the street. I’m sure there’s a dog-related analogy we could make in there somewhere… Absence of rebuttal, embrace of personal insult. Yeah, I thought you’d come up empty on that. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/176 "2013-11-26T02:30:47Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Holy shit - a vase full of plants + water? That IS a patient dog!! Of course he’s patient, he’s planning to “suddenly” “out of nowhere” rip the photographer to shreds! ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/177 "2013-11-26T04:27:07Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > \*Successfully \*banning pits would bring the # of pit-related dog bites & deaths to zero. It would almost certainly reduce the total number of dog-bite fatalities. Like prohibition and the drug war, however, the problem is there’s no realistic way to make the ban actually work. Even if it did, the “problem” would just shift to Rotties or something then there’d be cries to ban _them_. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/178 "2013-11-26T09:49:42Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Even if it did, the “problem” would just shift to Rotties or something then there’d be cries to ban _them_. Ding ding ding, we have a winner. And probably forever we will be faced with the hysteria of people who react irrationally to all the drama they are fed by the media, it is apparently an inescapable condition of the modern world. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/179 "2013-11-26T12:40:47Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Even if it did, the “problem” would just shift to Rotties or something then there’d be cries to ban _them_. I didn’t know Rotties were responsible for chewing dozens of kids to death each year. Smoking rates in the US have fallen sharply in the last 30-40 years, from over 40% to under 20%. That’s despite no outright ban on cigarettes. Instead, they’ve restricted where you can smoke, they’ve made it more expensive, and media exposure has made smoking less socially acceptable (less smoking in movies, for example). A very successful approach; no reason you can’t do the same with people that want to own shitty dogs. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714/180 "2013-11-26T15:17:26Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > There are approximately 83 million dogs in the U.S. There were 34 fatalities from dog bites in 2012. 20 of those were attributed to dogs believed to be pit bulls. So out of the 83 million dogs in the US in 2012, 20 killed people…… I don’t think I really want to get into this debate, I was just skimming the thread. But I have to seek clarification. “There were 34 fatalities… …so… …20 [dogs] killed people” Huh? No, 34 killed people. At least, 34 people died. Unless some single dog(s) killed more than one person, which I admit is possible, 34 dead people translates into roughly 34 killing dogs. You say that 20 of them were “believed to be pit bulls”. 20/34 = 58.8% of fatal attacks are attributed to pit bulls. Please tell me that pit bulls (or “dogs believed to be pit bulls”) make up 58.8% of the dog population of the US. In other words, of those 83 million, more than 48 million are pits. Otherwise it seems that pit bulls represent a higher-than-other-breeds danger. Or your statistics require some other explanation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-continued/670714.md?page=10)