# Pit bull's...when will we have enough?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-when-will-we-have-enough/69613
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [June 21, 2001, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-when-will-we-have-enough/69613 "2001-06-21T13:58:04Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@aha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aha)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2001, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-when-will-we-have-enough/69613/1 "2001-06-21T13:58:04Z")
10 year old Shawn Arnet in Richmond Ca. Jerked off his bike and mauled last night by three pitbull dogs. (sorry for the lack of links here but this is national news). It took 300 stitches to put him back together and he may not live anyway!
When are we going to do something legislatively about this? Ok I don’t have the pat answer to this problem but even one child mauled to death is tooooo many!!!
I am going to suggest that pit bull dogs should be outlawed or at least registered as a lethal weapon. Yes I know that ALL pit bulls aren’t killers but we can’t just keep saying, “It’s the owner’s fault for training them that way they are really adorable dogs” while people ( mostly kids) keep getting ripped to shreds by these animals.
If this were the pit I would rant on about how angry this makes me. but Instead I am gonna open myself to any suggestions pro or con that you debaters may have.
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### Author:  [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2001, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-when-will-we-have-enough/69613/2 "2001-06-21T14:23:23Z")
[This](http://www.sptimes.com/News/062101/State/Woman_bites_dog_twice.shtml) one’s kinda amusing, but only because there wasn’t any serious damage. Coulda been really nasty.
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### Author:  [@Acco40](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acco40)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2001, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-when-will-we-have-enough/69613/3 "2001-06-21T14:24:50Z")
Yes… I heard about this story on the Today show this morning.
I can’t believe we still allow these animals to be kept as pets. They are very dangerous… (1,500 lbs./sq. inch of pressure in their bite!)
I’m not arguing that these are the only dogs that are susceptible to aggression, but they are BRED TO BE AGGRESSIVE and physically strong… that is a bad combo.
And why is it that it’s the people who can’t control these animals that always seem to have 'em?
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### Author:  [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2001, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-when-will-we-have-enough/69613/4 "2001-06-21T14:27:19Z")
I dislike the “even one is too many” mentality. It points to broad sweeping legislation based on statistically insignificant events. I don’t know the statistics on kids being mauled by dogs, so I’m not commenting on that directly. But in general, I prefer a case-by-case basis.
This particular kid may die, and that is tragic. But are pit-bulls or pit-bull owners in general responsible? Or are these events rare? I imagine, as the story made “national news” that it’s a rare occurance. As such, pit bulls aren’t deadly weapons any more than 8-inch kitchen knives are. I hesitate to assign blame to a group and demand legislation based on fairly isolated events.
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### Author:  [@aha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aha)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2001, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-when-will-we-have-enough/69613/5 "2001-06-21T14:43:38Z")
Beelzebubba:
> [@](#):
>
> But are pit-bulls or pit-bull owners in general responsible? Or are these events rare? I imagine, as the story made “national news” that it’s a rare occurance. As such, pit bulls aren’t deadly weapons any more than 8-inch kitchen knives are. I hesitate to assign blame to a group and demand legislation based on fairly isolated events.
I keep hearing this same argument even as reports of kids being mauled are recorded across the US. When was the last time you heard of a Collie or Shitz-tu mauling a human being?
And once again I apologize for the lack of links here, if I can get off my ass today I will visit the web as fetch some.
> [@](#):
>
> As such, pit bulls aren’t deadly weapons any more than 8-inch kitchen knives
Except you can’t train a kitchen knife to rip someone’s throat out.
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### Author:  [@aha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aha)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2001, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-when-will-we-have-enough/69613/6 "2001-06-21T14:48:37Z")
Here’s one from England I feel sure I could find many more.
[http://www.thisisbolton.co.uk/lancashire/archive/1997/01/27/NEWS3-2VQ.html](http://www.thisisbolton.co.uk/lancashire/archive/1997/01/27/NEWS3-2VQ.html)
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### Author:  [@Wildest\_Bill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildest_Bill)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2001, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-when-will-we-have-enough/69613/7 "2001-06-21T14:50:50Z")
That’s right lets do em in. They are useless animals. They attacked my wife and she almost lost her eye for no apparant reason. They suck. Kill em all. btw I will help shoot them too.
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### Author:  [@Amp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amp)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2001, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-when-will-we-have-enough/69613/8 "2001-06-21T14:51:04Z")
According to [this link:](http://www.vegaskennels.com/facts.html)
> [@](#):
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> The American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) is a descendent of the original English bull-baiting Bulldog and has historically been bred with working/performance goals in mind.
The problem lies not with the dog but with the owners/handlers that perpetuate a negative stereotype of agressiveness by breeding them in that manner.
> [@](#):
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> Most people who think or say that “Pit Bulls” are inherently mean have most likely never met one and rely on the inaccurate media portryal of “Pit Bulls” as the basis for their opinions. Like any other breed of dog, the key areas of focus for ensuring a happy, well adjusted American Pit Bull Terrier as a pet are: **owner education** , proper breeding, socialization, and training.
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### Author:  [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2001, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-when-will-we-have-enough/69613/9 "2001-06-21T14:54:22Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by aha \*
>
> I keep hearing this same argument even as reports of kids being mauled are recorded across the US. When was the last time you heard of a Collie or Shitz-tu mauling a human being?
Part of the point that I was making was that, aside from this thread, I can’t remember the last time I heard about a pit-bull mauling some one.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, I’m saying it appears to happen infrequently, perhaps to the point of statistical insignificance, which is why I prefer a case-by-case basis than broad, far-reaching legislation.
> [@](#):
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> Except you can’t train a kitchen knife to rip someone’s throat out. \*\*
But can you train a collie to do it? If it’s a matter of the dogs capabilities, should we get rid of all dogs capable of attack? Presumably the person doing this training wants a viscious dog, and has settled on pit-bulls due to their reputation. When the pit-bulls are gone, can’t we presume this person will get a different breed and train them to similar behavior?
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### Author:  [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2001, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-when-will-we-have-enough/69613/10 "2001-06-21T14:59:27Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by aha \*
>
> And once again I apologize for the lack of links here, if I can get off my ass today I will visit the web as fetch some.
you could also read [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=57725) to learn a little background on how everyone here feels.
You can’t train a kitchen knife to rip someone’s throat out, but you can make the decision to use it for that purpose or not.
jarbaby
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### Author:  [@sghoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sghoul)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2001, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-when-will-we-have-enough/69613/11 "2001-06-21T15:04:34Z")
I think the problem isn’t the pit bulls. I have known many pit bulls that were very sweet. It how they are raised. Many times, someone who buys a pit bull gets them to have that mean dog. The teach them to be mean and aggressive. As such, they turn out that way. I am willing to be that if you put a collie in the same environment that these dogs are often in, they would turn out similar.
When I was younger, I had a neighbor who flat out told me to stay away from his pit bull. I would play with her through the fence, and she loved it. He felt that he couldn’t get her to be vicious and mean, because of me and my family’s influence.
I really feel that this is an issue with the fact that the people who are responsible for those dogs won’t get punished enough. If the punishments on these kinds of things were harsh enough, people would probably be less blase about the fact that they are raising such a powerful killing machine.
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### Author:  [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2001, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-when-will-we-have-enough/69613/12 "2001-06-21T15:36:52Z")
> [@](#):
>
> The American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) is a descendent of the original English bull-baiting Bulldog and has historically been bred with working/performance goals in mind.
Out of curiousity: what on earth are the working/performance goals in mind here? Maybe I’m being uncreative, but I’m failing to see any legitimate need for a heavy, stocky animal bred to be able to bite nigh-upon anything in half.
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### Author:  [@aha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aha)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2001, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-when-will-we-have-enough/69613/13 "2001-06-21T16:03:19Z")
This cite[url [http://www.dog-play.com/pitbull.html](http://www.dog-play.com/pitbull.html) [/quote]
seems to make sense. In part it says:
> [@](#):
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> Regulation defining prohibited dog behavior is probably a more practicable approach than breed specific regulation. Such regulation is more likely to be supported. Properly drafted it has a stronger legal and evidentiary basis.
So this would seem to point towards the dog owners themselves as opposed to the dog. I am just in favor of anything that will help regulate the prevention of these powerful animals with jaws that have 1500 lbs of pressure per square inch, from attacking human beings for any reason.
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### Author:  [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2001, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-when-will-we-have-enough/69613/14 "2001-06-21T16:10:14Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by aha \*
> \*\*Here’s one from England I feel sure I could find many more.
> [http://www.thisisbolton.co.uk/lancashire/archive/1997/01/27/NEWS3-2VQ.html](http://www.thisisbolton.co.uk/lancashire/archive/1997/01/27/NEWS3-2VQ.html) \*\*
Well, according to [this story](http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/lancashire/archive/1997/02/01/NEWS4-2VQ.html), the dog you refer to was already impounded for it’s behavior, was stolen and escaped to do further damage.
> [@](#):
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> Since the Lancashire Evening Telegraph reported last weekend’s attack, other members of the public have come forward to report being bitten by what they believe is the same black dog
Are you suggesting that this dog is representative of pit-bulls in general? If so, then should we put a general ban on [golden retrievers](http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/lancashire/archive/1999/06/18/NEWSBBN4VQ.html)?
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### Author:  [@\_authority](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_authority)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2001, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-when-will-we-have-enough/69613/15 "2001-06-21T16:12:33Z")
It seems to me that most of these so called vicious dogs are owned by criminals to start with. You don’t see the responsible pit bull owner on TV after his dog mauls some kid because responsible dog owner’s dogs are controlled. What you do see on TV are the dogs that belong to drug dealers, gang members, and dog fighters. Guess what people…. criminals don’t care about the law, that’s why they are criminals. By banning or regulating pit bulls you are going after the responsible dog owners who are not the problem.
My radical answer to this “problem”…control the criminals. Put their asses in jail and leave them there, then they can’t own vicious dogs or commit other crimes.
BTW Petie on “The Little Rascals” was a pit bull and he didn’t maul Butch even when he deserved it.
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### Author:  [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2001, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-when-will-we-have-enough/69613/16 "2001-06-21T16:13:04Z")
[apologies, **aha**]
I am going to suggest that SUVs should be outlawed or at least registered as a lethal weapon. Yes I know that ALL SUVs aren’t killers but we can’t just keep saying, “It’s the owner’s fault for driving them that way they are really useful and attractive vehicles” while people ( mostly in smaller cars) keep getting ripped to shreds by these SUVs.
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### Author:  [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2001, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-when-will-we-have-enough/69613/17 "2001-06-21T16:28:21Z")
How strange. This is the same topic that prompted my very first post to this board, back in 1999. Like I said then, barring brain damage or mental defects, no dog is inherently bad or violent. A dog is only what its owner makes it. A good owner raises a good dog. A violent owner produces a violent dog.
And now, I will attempt to rebut the keenly crafted, well thought out statistical argument (“even one is too many!”) brought by the OP:
From the [CDC](http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/drown.htm):
> [@](#):
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> In 1998, 4,406 people drowned, including 1,003 children younger than 15 years old.
> …
> Drowning is the second leading cause of injury-related death for children (aged 1 through 14 years), accounting for 940 deaths in 1998.
And from another CDC [report](http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/97gm3_09.pdf), there were 10,163 deaths from poisoning and 15,447 from accidental falls in 1997.
And finally, from yet [another CDC report](http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/dogbreeds.pdf), for the two years combined:
> [@](#):
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> During 1997 and 1998, at least 27 people died as the result of dog bite attacks (18 people in 1997 and 9 in 1998). Of 27 human DBRF, 19 (70%) were children (1 was 30 days old, 3 were between 7 and 11 months old, 9 were between 1 and 4 years old, and 6 were between 5 and 11 years old), and 8 were adults (ages 17, 44, 64, 70, 73, 75, 75, and 87).
We live in a nation of 281,000,000 people, of whom in a single year about 10,000 were poisoned and 4500 drowned, you think we need special legislation outlawing specific dog breeds, when ALL BREEDS COMBINED tallied only 238 deaths over a period of TEN YEARS?? That is an insignificant number, and not worthy of legislative attention.
Give me a F-ing break. Put a lifeguard on your pool and lock your knife drawer if you’re that concerned about children’s safety.
But it’s not media-cool to have certain kinds of dogs. I bet every single one of the six pit bull deaths for that two year period was big news.
How many stabbing deaths did you see on the news? Poisoning? Drowning? Automobile? Do you think the number reported approached even 1%?
Yeah, I thought not. But rottweiler and pit bull deaths are reported to nearly 100%.
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### Author:  [@Pyrrhonist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pyrrhonist)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2001, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-when-will-we-have-enough/69613/18 "2001-06-21T16:43:24Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Wildest Bill \*
> \*\*That’s right lets do em in. They are useless animals. They attacked my wife and she almost lost her eye for no apparant reason. They suck. Kill em all. btw I will help shoot them too. \*\*
I think the owners who train dogs to fight should be the ones shot. I’ll help shoot them too. BTW, let’s kill the owners kids, brothers and sisters, and first cousins, too. Let’s just ride of the gene pool the wants fighting dogs.
Getting rid of a dog breed will not get rid of the owners who want fighting dogs. People who train dogs to fight need a few years in a maximum security prison after their dogs attack. Training dogs to fight, especially when it is for the so called sport of dog fighting, also should send the owner to the pokey for cruelty to animals, IMHO.
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### Author:  [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2001, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-when-will-we-have-enough/69613/19 "2001-06-21T17:43:51Z")
I’ll bet those few people who were seriously attacked by dogs would have had a better chance of surviving the experience intact if they’d had a gun…
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### Author:  [@missdavis102](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missdavis102)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2001, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-bulls-when-will-we-have-enough/69613/20 "2001-06-21T17:48:18Z")
I don’t think we have enough pit bulls yet. I’m doing my part by having one, but he’s neutered, so that’s not really much help in the long run. He is a real sweetie – was sent to the pound by abusive former owners, and it has taken me a long time to make him stop rolling on his back submissively when people come near him. My nephews and nieces play with him in the yard (under my supervision) and once they realize he will not hurt them, they stop being afraid of him. He likes to be patted and have his belly rubbed. (Maybe this is the wrong place to mention it, but my own favorite game with him is “burglar and attack dog”; he gets bored after a few goes, and won’t play this with anyone but me.) All big animals scare people a little, or they should. For that matter, little animals should scare people a little, too.
Seriously, if we’re going to start outlawing any and every thing that kills children in rare (or not rare), freak occurrences, let’s outlaw grizzly bears, swimming pools, buckets of water, bicycles on roadways, toys with small parts, household chemicals, poisonous plants, stoves, etc., etc., ad infinitum. As others have pointed out, some of these things actually do account for large numbers of deaths and injuries annually. Lots of things may or may not be dangerous to people, but that’s a part of living on this planet – facing unknown dangers. Sure, people do stupid things to create dangerous situations, but you can’t just go around outlawing or destroying everything that might somehow harm anyone.
Don’t even get me started on real dangers, like child abuse and neglect, accidental shootings, drowning, drunk driving, and auto accidents in general (I’m afraid SUVs will get me, and my little dog). There are way better things you can waste your time worrying about than whether or not my dog is going to eat your child. If you don’t want your child to be eaten by a dog (or drown in a bucket of water, drink bleach, choke on toys, etc), teach the child to stay away from all animals it doesn’t know (or other potential hazards), and teach it what to do should it unexpectedly encounter an animal (or potential hazard). A combination of caution and ability to cope with the unexpected will make childhood a lot safer. Common sense and some parental supervision would probably go a long way to preventing many accidental deaths and injuries, concerning a huge array of possibly harmful situations.
For the record, I’ve been bitten by a dog myself (when I was a child). It was a “friendly looking” Basset hound, and I was in its yard uninvited. As I see things, it was doing its job.
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