# Pit everything cause I fucking want too. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 27, 2006, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-everything-cause-i-fucking-want-too/350169 "2006-03-27T23:02:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-everything-cause-i-fucking-want-too/350169/61 "2006-03-28T02:16:07Z")
> [@Bippy the Beardless](#): > > Behind all the frothing at the mouth of the OP, and missdirected anger at other dopers, there is a very valid pitting of the Doctors who were willing to diagnose the child as in a PVS with zero chance of recovery. > As long as doctors make such stupid mistakes (and it is stupid to ever risk a false positive diagnosis of PVS) it lends credence to those who would rather remove peoples right to die, and/or prevent the legal judgments necessary to remove life support from someone who is kept alive only through constant intervention with no possibility of regained consciesness. Uh, no. After reading what happened, I think that those who would rather remove peoples right to die are still twisting the truth like in the Schaivo case, It leads less credence to them. What I clearly see is that in this case the prosecution of a criminal affected the care of a patient. Laws must be passed to add more time to make unbiased diagnostics, but at the end of a third opinion (Schaivo got more than that) you have to let go. ---
**Author:** ![Demo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demo/32/8472_2.png) [@Demo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demo)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-everything-cause-i-fucking-want-too/350169/62 "2006-03-28T17:12:40Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > **However** , as I pointed out, the doctors didn’t, according to this story, diagnose PVS in those 8 days - just that she was in a vegetative state, one which was permanent, and as the AMA site says “permanent” vegetative status can be used when they’re extremly sure she won’t come out of it - which they were. I’m afraid that according to that story the doctors did not diagnose incorrectly. Did you just say that the doctors didn’t diagnose the patient with persistant vegetative state but they diagnosed her with permanent vegetative state? From my googling, the terms are basically interchagngeable. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-everything-cause-i-fucking-want-too/350169/63 "2006-03-28T17:36:58Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Uh, no. After reading what happened, I think that those who would rather remove peoples right to die are still twisting the truth like in the Schaivo case, It leads less credence to them. > > What I clearly see is that in this case the prosecution of a criminal affected the care of a patient. Laws must be passed to add more time to make unbiased diagnostics, but at the end of a third opinion (Schaivo got more than that) you have to let go. There is still the missdiagnosis of a permanent vegitative state. If we are to consider that it is ethical to allow someone in such a state to die, then we need to have a sufficiently sound method of diagnosing such a state that mistakes should not occur. The fact that competent doctors cannot diagnose a permanent vegitative state with sufficient accuracy in the time they are given, just means they should not make such a diagnosis, or should at least couch the diagnosis in a reasonable estimate of potential error. If the doctors involved said they were 99% certain that the girl was in a permanent vegitative state, then I seriously doubt that any attempt to remove life support would have been taken at that stage. If this girl is the first ever case of someone making such a level of recovery from her apparent pvs then the doctors cannot be faulted in believing that her state was 100% permanent, but there would then need to be a reevaluation of how such states are tested/evaluated. If, as seems to have happened, the doctors gave a somwhat rushed diagnosis, and that given time they could have given a much better diagnosis, then the doctors should be pitted to extremis for having presented there rushed diagnosis as anything other than a rushed and potentially faulty diagnosis. The laws that gave the doctors no time to achieve a diagnosis that was not rushed and subject to such exterme error also need a similar level of pitting. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-everything-cause-i-fucking-want-too/350169/64 "2006-03-28T18:30:58Z")
And that is virtually all I was trying to say \*\*Bippy the Beardless \*\* This case is showing the time that needs to be added and further actions to get a better opinion. The problem here is the idea from \*\*Abbie Normal \*\* that doctors had an agenda and they were following it no matter what, fact is the nanosecond an improvement was noticed, the decision in favor of taking life support away was dumped. So much for “pushing an agenda” ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-everything-cause-i-fucking-want-too/350169/65 "2006-03-28T18:50:08Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > take special care to get a tongue swipe on my asshole. Gots to say, lotta anal in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![RyJae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@RyJae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RyJae)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-everything-cause-i-fucking-want-too/350169/66 "2006-03-28T21:12:04Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And that is virtually all I was trying to say \*\*Bippy the Beardless \*\* > > This case is showing the time that needs to be added and further actions to get a better opinion. The problem here is the idea from \*\*Abbie Normal \*\* that doctors had an agenda and they were following it no matter what, fact is the nanosecond an improvement was noticed, the decision in favor of taking life support away was dumped. So much for “pushing an agenda” No there was clearly an agenda, from a premature diagnosis, to the states premature court approval to remove life support to DtC saying the shit he said in that thread. The agenda was to compare this case to the Terri case, which as I stated both in this thread and that thread have nothing to do with one another. In that case she had someone with her well being in mind as well as her wishes known, in Michael. For Haleigh there was no one and IMO that is why she almost got the shaft. And to the chagrine of DtC I will say it again they wanted to KILL her. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-everything-cause-i-fucking-want-too/350169/67 "2006-03-28T21:21:57Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > For Haleigh there was no one and IMO that is why she almost got the shaft. And to the chagrine of DtC I will say it again they wanted to KILL her. And this is still not the truth, her stepfather was and it is a lie to say the doctors wanted her dead, more likely the prosecution was. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-everything-cause-i-fucking-want-too/350169/68 "2006-03-28T22:13:51Z")
I really don’t understand what the fuss is all about. I mean, it’s not like she was particularly pretty or anything–what would have been the loss if they yanked ther plug? ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-everything-cause-i-fucking-want-too/350169/69 "2006-03-28T22:24:11Z")
Straight to hell, I tell ya… ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-everything-cause-i-fucking-want-too/350169/70 "2006-03-28T22:43:39Z")
> [@Abbie Normal](#): > > No there was clearly an agenda, from a premature diagnosis, to the states premature court approval to remove life support to DtC saying the shit he said in that thread. The agenda was to compare this case to the Terri case, which as I stated both in this thread and that thread have nothing to do with one another. In that case she had someone with her well being in mind as well as her wishes known, in Michael. For Haleigh there was no one and IMO that is why she almost got the shaft. And to the chagrine of DtC I will say it again they wanted to KILL her. **Abbie** , this is the exact same shrill, hysterical tone that got you nowhere in the orgininal thread. If you want people to listen to you, it’s best to not sound like the crazy homeless guy in front of the 7-11. And no one wanted to KILL the girl except for the man who put her into that state to begin with. Saying it over and over again doesn’t make it true. It just makes you sound like a raving lunatic. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-everything-cause-i-fucking-want-too/350169/71 "2006-03-29T00:17:20Z")
Was there _motive_ for wanting to kill her? Do the doctors get paid a $75 bonus for every foster child they “kill”? What exactly is the reason you insist doctors “wanted” to “kill” her? (And I fucking _knew_ it was DtC about to suck off the doctors in that “Kill the Autistic Kid” hospital specialty porn, but he would _never_ admit to it! BTW, “Kill the Autistic Kid” hospital specialty porn is one helluva lot better than _Showgirls_. ) ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-everything-cause-i-fucking-want-too/350169/72 "2006-03-29T00:30:59Z")
> [@Demo](#): > > Did you just say that the doctors didn’t diagnose the patient with persistant vegetative state but they diagnosed her with permanent vegetative state? From my googling, the terms are basically interchagngeable. Sort of. But there’s two different terms being used, here; Persistent Vegetative State disorder, PVS; Characterised by the patient being in a vegetative state for at least one month, as well as other factors. The name given to a _whole_ condition. Permanent vegetative state (note not capatalised); A term for the patient being in, well, a vegetative state permanently. A symptom of a condition, _not the name of that condition itself_. Now, PVS requires that there has been a vegetative state for at least a month. In order for the patient to be diagnosed with it, according to the AMA, among other things is that the patient must be in a consistent vegetative state for at least a month. That’s the problem Abbie’s pointing out - he’s saying the doctors diagnosed her with PVS after only 8 days, which would suggest the doctors acted incorrectly. However, the story Abbie cited doesn’t mention PVS - what it does say is that the doctors diagnosed the patient as being in a permanent vegetative state, a diagnosis which may be made when the doctors have sufficient evidence that it is the case. One of those factors mentioned is substantial brain stem damage, for example. The doctors, in that story, seem to have diagnosed the patient as being in a permanent vegetative state, which has \*no time restriction \* that the patient must be in that state for. It’s totally reliant on evidence, in which (I assume) the length of time the patient is in a vegetative state could be used as one point of evidence, _but does not have to be_ (unlike PVS). So it’s not a case of the two terms being interchangeable - PVS is a clinical diagnosis of a condition, a permanent vegetative state is a symptom of a condition. PVS can have, and often does, have a permanent vegetative state as a symptom, which is why they’re so closely linked. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-everything-cause-i-fucking-want-too/350169/73 "2006-03-29T00:40:54Z")
> [@Go You Big Red Fire Engine](#): > > Let’s all remember that this is the guy who picked the name **Abbie** Normal, and expects people to tell that he’s male by the fact his location says “arrow not cross”. I reckon I’m old enough to remember Abbie Hoffman, the male Yippie activist, one of the Chicago Seven. I’m also old enough to remember the scene in _Young Frankenstein_ where Eye-gor admits that the brain inside the monster is from “Abbie Somebody… **Abbie Normal**.” You don’t hear it much these days, but Abbie is short for Abner, not just Abigail. I am NOT defending **Abbie Normal’s** rant, by the way. In this thread, he’s gone right 'round the bend. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-everything-cause-i-fucking-want-too/350169/74 "2006-03-29T00:46:06Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And this is still not the truth, her stepfather was and it is a lie to say the doctors wanted her dead, more likely the prosecution was. Her stepfather was around, but wasn’t he the one who put her in that condition to begin with? I wouldn’t let him make decisions on her behalf. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-everything-cause-i-fucking-want-too/350169/75 "2006-03-29T01:03:04Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Her stepfather was around, but wasn’t he the one who put her in that condition to begin with? I wouldn’t let him make decisions on her behalf. Me neither, I was replying to **Abbie Normal** ’s convenient way of missing evidence. The unique circumstances of this case makes it less valid as an example in favor of what he is saying here. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-everything-cause-i-fucking-want-too/350169/76 "2006-03-29T04:04:05Z")
For the record, The state was in a rush to get the legal standing to make the decision about if the plug would be pulled or not. Both her bio-mom and bio-dad (at the time) wanted life support removed. My [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7018966&postcount=89) with links. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Her stepfather was around, but wasn’t he the one who put her in that condition to begin with? I wouldn’t let him make decisions on her behalf. Nothing I could find at the time supports the accusation that “stepfather” (“stepfather” was married to adoptive-mom but never adopted Haleigh) caused the injury. Here’s my [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7020867&postcount=116) with more details. The story as best as I could put it together, adoptive-mom beats the hell out of Haleigh, her mother (grandmother of Haleigh, mother of bio-mom and adoptive-mom) finds out and kills adoptive-mom, then commits suicide, leaving the state with no one to prosecute but stepdad, [ > [@](#): > > …Mr. Strickland’s criminal case further complicates things. He is charged with assault and battery, accused of striking Haleigh once with an open hand and once with a plastic toy, and of not stopping Ms. Strickland when she committed more serious assaults, like hitting Haleigh with a baseball bat and kicking her existing bruises… ]([http://www.boston.com/yourlife/health/other/articles/2005/12/06/custody\_and\_abuse\_cases\_swirl\_around\_a\_troubled\_girl\_on\_life\_support/?page=1](http://www.boston.com/yourlife/health/other/articles/2005/12/06/custody_and_abuse_cases_swirl_around_a_troubled_girl_on_life_support/?page=1)) [ > [@Abbie Normal](#): > > … September 11th 2005 Haleigh is admitted to the hospital with severe abuse signs > > September 12th 2005 The state concludes there is reasonable cause that the girl was abused > > September 13th 2005 The state DSS takes custody of Haleigh > > September 30th 2005 The state DSS (Headed by DSS Commissioner Harry Spence) went to court to remove life support. \ ***1** > > Between September 30th and January 17th the abusing step father fought (for his own selfish reasons no doubt) to keep her alive. > > January 17th 2006 Supreme Judicial Court approves life support removal… ]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7046043&postcount=125](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7046043&postcount=125))Rush?, or did the state know it would take 5 months to get a decision? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-everything-cause-i-fucking-want-too/350169/77 "2006-03-29T04:45:51Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > I reckon I’m old enough to remember Abbie Hoffman, the male Yippie activist, one of the Chicago Seven. … You don’t hear it much these days, but Abbie is short for Abner, not just Abigail. In Hoffman’s case, it was short for Abbott. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-everything-cause-i-fucking-want-too/350169.md?page=3)