# Pit rules have been revised **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [February 24, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256 "2009-02-24T19:34:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![DudleyGarrett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DudleyGarrett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DudleyGarrett)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/261 "2009-02-25T01:09:07Z")
> [@Uvula\_Donor](#): > > [No, you’re not.](http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details/boards.straightdope.com) User reach is down 20% in 3 months. That’s **record high** traffic loss. See? ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/262 "2009-02-25T01:11:03Z")
> [@bluecanary](#): > > The single worst part of these new rules, to me, is this suggestion: _“Creative insults [aimed at posters] on the other hand are welcome as always.”_. I interpreted this to mean (obv disclaimer - just examples, I’m not trying to flame you per se): Unacceptable: **bluecanary** you are a fat fuck who sucks his own cock fuck off shitface. Acceptable: **bluecanary** you are so dense you throw off the tides. Now posters may argue the relative creativity of the second sentence, but I am pretty sure most of us can understand the difference between the two in spirit. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/263 "2009-02-25T01:11:58Z")
> [@DudleyGarrett](#): > > That settles it then. Ed, you’ve got your one supporter. Well, to be honest I’m fine with the new rules too. I don’t curse that much anyway unless provoked into it and lately I’ve been trying not to even then. I’m just questioning whether everyone is gonna settle down and adjust or whether they’re gonna be so silly and childish in trying to prove the new rules unworkable that they will in fact prove to be just that. Still, things seem to be calming down and I’m starting to think the overall repercussions of this will be minimal. There just isn’t another place like this and I just can’t imagine that very many people will bail because they can’t say “fuck you” to somebody else in the Pit. And if they do…well, fuck the fuckin’ fuckers. 😃 It might be worth pointing out also, since I haven’t seen it mentioned yet, that the Pit isn’t turning into MPSIMS or any other forum, because insults are not allowed outside the Pit. So all this stuff about the Pit being no different than the other forums just isn’t so. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/264 "2009-02-25T01:12:30Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > I _welcome_ the change. As I understand the new rules, it is perfectly ok to remove someone’s spleen----as it was before-----but it must be done with a scalpel, and not with a butter knife. > > Regarding Frank’s comments, rather than attracting children, we may actually attract more adults. I suspect that more than a few people have been turned off by the utter juvenile nature of the litany of witless comments. > > I think The Pit didn’t live up to it’s potential, and I think the new rules give it the chance to do just that. The dimmest bulbs will be rendered speechless, or at least less crude and juvenile. The rest will simply step up their game and stop using the first word that comes to their key board. > > Ed, my 200 pesos: This _is_ an over reaction; the over reaction of a forum that had gotten out of control. > > _"There are all sorts of ingenious and scabrously funny comments you can make that don’t involve saying “fuck you.” "_ > > Indeed. There’s something to this. Cecil’s columns are intelligent, snarky, definitely adult at times, but not juvenile crude name calling, and that’s what I liked about this place. If I want teenage name calling and really, really bad typing I can go to any number of other message boards. I’ll get swamped with lots of graphical sigs, too. I’ve been on the WWW since it began, and I always thought flaming was to be done with a bit of panache, and not particularly personal. But it should FLAME if you’re going to take the time to do it. When you post online, you have an audience, and it’s just a message board, for crying out loud. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/265 "2009-02-25T01:20:06Z")
A very bad idea. I do not see that the Pit was broken or needed fixing. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/266 "2009-02-25T01:20:41Z")
Whoa, looks like the changes really did kill the board. ---
**Author:** ![DudleyGarrett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DudleyGarrett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DudleyGarrett)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/267 "2009-02-25T01:21:13Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Well, to be honest I’m fine with the new rules too. I don’t curse that much anyway unless provoked into it and lately I’ve been trying not to even then. I’m just questioning whether everyone is gonna settle down and adjust or whether they’re gonna be so silly and childish in trying to prove the new rules unworkable that they will in fact prove to be just that. > > Still, things seem to be calming down and I’m starting to think the overall repercussions of this will be minimal. There just isn’t another place like this and I just can’t imagine that very many people will bail because they can’t say “fuck you” to somebody else in the Pit. > > And if they do…well, fuck the fuckin’ fuckers. 😃 > > It might be worth pointing out also, since I haven’t seen it mentioned yet, that the Pit isn’t turning into MPSIMS or any other forum, because insults are not allowed outside the Pit. So all this stuff about the Pit being no different than the other forums just isn’t so. My only serious gripe is that this place is already chock full 'o rules. I mean, for example, in the celebrity death pool thread, Boyo Jim was admonished for political commentary as it wasn’t appropriate. Um, really? That post required moderating? Why must there be rules on top of rules on top of rules here? Most people here adults (and those who are minors are at least very smart) and the content of the board doesn’t attract the typical Internet simpleton. It seems that the plethora of rules oft lead to confusion between the staff and the posters. Hell, most of the squabbles on this board are over moderators’ interpretation of rules. It seems like Ed and the moderation staff are huge control freaks and have to have everything precise, including what people write. What’s next? Will rules of grammar be enforced? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/268 "2009-02-25T01:23:47Z")
**HoboStew** you just said you don’t post in, or even visit, the Pit. So why do you even give a shit? :rolleyes: > [@Ed\_Zotti](#): > > No disrespect, but I guess we’ll just see. People have been claiming the board was going to the dogs pretty much since the first day we fired up the server. We’re currently at record high traffic. I’ll be surprised if we see much of a drop, but if we do, what does that tell me? “X percent of posters went away because I said they had to be civil.” Again, no disrespect, but how upset do you expect me to be? If the board traffic is at a record high-then why fuck with what works? :dubious: No, people aren’t leaving because “they had to be civil.” They’re leaving because all of a sudden, you spring on us this huge change, and don’t expect at least SOME complaints? That’s pretty disengenious, and incredibly insulting. Why didn’t you take a poll? Or, did you not care what your very own customers have to say? **Dex** -way to miss the point. Or perhaps, not. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Hot\_Buttered\_Toast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b38774/32.png) [@Hot\_Buttered\_Toast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hot_Buttered_Toast)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/269 "2009-02-25T01:24:58Z")
_Who_ are we supposed to step up our game for? You, Ed? People who visit the board and might want to join, which probably isn’t going to be too soon? People who said “hey, I’m not too comfortable with all these people saying ‘fuck you’, could they possibly make their insults more witty so I can chortle in my chair”? Imaginary people from Chicago? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/270 "2009-02-25T01:25:21Z")
I suppose my biggest problem with this, beyond that I too don’t like this new take on the Pit, is that it isn’t going to work. Not a hope in hell. People are going to work around the rules, push the boundaries, and stick their toes into the water. They’re going to get vulgarities into their posts no matter the restrictions - the rule could have explcitly ruled out the mentioning of body parts, sexual acts, and scatalogical points in insults, and you’d still find people who could think of great ways to be vulgar. Hell,\* I\* can, and I tend not to direct any at people. And because these rules are impressively capricious - unless all of the mods are entirely in lockstep as what consists vulgarity, which I doubt, and unless all of the posters are likewise entirely in lockstep, which has already proven to be false - you’re going to have a **big** problem sorting out the testers of the line from the innocent. And the only way to do that, of course, is by knowing the poster so that you know the intent - and bingo, you have different rules for different posters, enforced arbitrarily. We’ve already seen two different moderator takes; calling someone an ass appears OK to **Dex** , calling someone an asshole not so to **Ed**. What other differences are there? It’s been said that one reason for this is at least in part to try and be more business-like about the boards. I believe this new situation will cause so much trouble in enforcement that it will not only be difficult to actually control, but the added work from trying to patrol the Pit, from Moderator discussions about particular posters or issues, from threads such as this one with complaints, that other areas of moderating duty are going to fall slacker. It’s no good bringing in new rules to enforce civility if you’re so busy ruling on them that people are getting away with other stuff elsewhere - and that presumes they actually work to enforce civility in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/271 "2009-02-25T01:26:08Z")
> [@Hot\_Buttered\_Toast](#): > > _Who_ are we supposed to step up our game for? This. Excellent point. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/272 "2009-02-25T01:29:31Z")
> [@DudleyGarrett](#): > > It seems like Ed and the moderation staff are huge control freaks and have to have everything precise, including what people write. What’s next? Will rules of grammar be enforced? [The perfect time to link to this video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8fbrUjjivw). > [@fisha](#): > > Fuck that, **Miller.** A panda walks into a restaurant, sits down, and orders a sandwich. After he finishes eating the sandwich, the panda pulls out a gun and shoots the waiter, and then stands up to go. “Hey!” shouts the manager. “Where are you going? You just shot my waiter and you didn’t pay for your sandwich!” The panda yells back at the manager, “Hey, man, I’m a PANDA! Look it up!” The manager opens his wildlife manual and sees the following article for panda: “Panda: A large ursine creature of East Asian origin. Characterized by its distinctive black and white coloring. Fuck that, **Ed Zotti**.” ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/273 "2009-02-25T01:29:33Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **HoboStew** you just said you don’t post in, or even visit, the Pit. So why do you even give a shit? :rolleyes: Try reading before tossing around your rolleyes. [QUOTE=HoboStew] Sure, I don’t post to the pit much and obviously am not losing much personally out of the deal, and the fact is that I don’t care if you are allowed to swear in the pit since I rarely go there. But management here DOES care, and since I like their product I will support their decision. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/274 "2009-02-25T01:29:38Z")
**Ed** , the SDMB, the Pit in particular, has gotten worse and worse since you decided to take more interest in it a few months ago. With the exception of moving Mod complaints to ATMB, this is a terrible idea. I’ve been a big fan of your column since the early 80s which is what brought me here in the first place. I am so disappointed in this. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/275 "2009-02-25T01:33:28Z")
> [@HoboStew](#): > > Unacceptable: > **bluecanary** you are a fat fuck who sucks his own cock fuck off shitface. > > Acceptable: > **bluecanary** you are so dense you throw off the tides. However, the following is Acceptable: **AT&T rep** you are a fat fuck who sucks his own cock fuck off shitface. We only need to be civil and business like towards other posters, we can rant and rave like middle schoolers, as long as it’s aimed at a non board member. I’m interested to see how this all shakes out. ---
**Author:** ![MadPansy64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@MadPansy64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MadPansy64)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/276 "2009-02-25T01:34:01Z")
> [@DudleyGarrett](#): > > User reach is down 20% in 3 months. That’s **record high** traffic loss. See? Yeah, but there is a serious spike at February month end. Hmmmm. Lots of former members/guests checking out the latest brewhaha and _viewing the ads_ perhaps? Our toes are soggier than ever, but the advertisers are briefly reassured. It looks like Mr Zotti is winning this round. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/277 "2009-02-25T01:35:42Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > d\*ouchebag 😕 ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/278 "2009-02-25T01:36:30Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > I’ve been a big fan of your column since the early 80s which is what brought me here in the first place. I am so disappointed in this. Blasphemy! **Unca Cecil** writes the column and is the morning and the evening star. **Ed Zotti** is but the Metatron. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/279 "2009-02-25T01:37:09Z")
Really? I could swear I’d heard that while **Cecil Adams** was the morning star, it was **Ed Zotti** who was the evening star… ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2009, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/280 "2009-02-25T01:37:46Z")
Okay, this is long, but it is at least the voice of some experience, so I hope it’s worth it. I used to work at the BBC, moderating their messageboards: thousands of messages a day, all of which had to be read in full. Not my favourite job ever, I can tell you. Our management made plenty of hilariously bad decisions, chief amongst them an absolute refusal to allow direct dialogue between mods and posters, something that built up no end of resentment among users. So I know from bad boards, and I know what makes a moderator’s life difficult. And this move is an absolute corker. The new rule is going to make the Pit an absolute nightmare to mod. People get annoyed at things they don’t understand, and they get annoyed when they perceive inconsistency, and this will give them both in spades. Moreover it seems to me _exactly_ like the umpteen rules I was asked to implement that were written more out of concern for how the boards make the owners look than for what they’re like to inhabit. You can write the complaints off as immature people who can’t be civil if you like, but it would, IMO, be a complete mistake. I saw the BBC’s annoying and capricious moderation policies turn completely nice posters into ranting loons, and I occasionally saw the exact same process in reverse: we had some guy track down our private numbers to shout at us, only to become mortified within minutes once he realised he was dealing with humans who would explain things to him patiently. He apologised profusely and sloped off, and thereafter was a very pleasant contributor. Moderating with a light touch does _so much more_ to keep things sane than trying to exhaustively define what behaviour is acceptable. > [@Ed Zotti](#): > > You know what? Wait a while and see how this works out in practice. This is fair enough, to a point, but can’t you see how completely impossible this is going to prove in practice? The chances of being able to implement this in an even-handed manner would be almost nil even if you had a full-time squad of moderators possessed of some sort of hive mind. For two people who are only sporadically around and apparently aren’t in regular direct communication, you’ve got no chance. You’re going to end up with an absolute host of people asking why they were warned when so-and-so wasn’t, because every decision you make and explain will cloud the line, not clarify it. That’s because the line you’re describing simply doesn’t exist. Things like this: > [@](#): > > I’ll say this: If it makes us laugh, you’re not going to get in that much trouble. may sound great to you, but it’s utterly terrible communication of policy. Makes you laugh? What? People don’t come to messageboards because they want to worry about a constantly watching eye. They don’t come to entertain the moderators, they come to talk to each other. They’d like clear boundaries that don’t need a million examples to comprehend, and then they’d like to get on with talking. Yes, when you say “we’re just asking people to be more civil,” it sounds simple. But like most apparently simple things, it’s really not simple at all, because not only is it in complete contradiction to the Pit’s supposed purpose, one man’s “civil” is another man’s cockslap to the face. And when you start chucking in all this stuff about making us laugh, or scabrous insults that are fine, you just confuse things more. At the moment, the only way I would feel completely safe from a warning in the Pit is to post exactly how I post everywhere else. And what’s the point of that? I guarantee you this new rule is going to turn the Pit into a constant source of mod heartache. I’ve been there before. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256.md?page=15)