# Pit rules have been revised **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [February 24, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256 "2009-02-24T19:34:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/61 "2009-02-24T20:27:45Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > Yeah, I have my own personal solution to this, in that this board will not be getting another dime of my money, given it’s current direction. > > I expect this to be taken as a threat against the board. I agree. I don’t care about seeing ads. Most of them get blocked anyway. I have been paying to support the board. As I said in another thread, I do not flame. I may have traded one or two insults in the entire time I’ve been here (and I don’t remember who they were with). I have been reading the board since the AOL days. I have been reading the Straight Dope since the 80s. I think this is a horrible idea. Given it’s current direction, they will not be getting another dime from me either. I’m sure I’ll still post. Never in Pitlite. Its too damn late. I’m going to bed. I suspect this thread will be 8 pages long (or closed) by the time I get up. Loach Future Guest ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/62 "2009-02-24T20:27:56Z")
[QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] Well, we knew there’d be over-reaction. Look, we’re not saying you can’t insult other posters. We’re saying that there’s a line ( **however fuzzy**.) “You’re a jerk” is acceptable; “Fuck yourself” is not. “You’re stupid” is fine; “You’re a cunt” is not. It’s a question of insult vs abuse. **There is a difference, and it’s usually pretty clear.** We’re not cutting out insults, we’re cutting out viciousness and abusiveness. (bolding added for emphasis–Veb) [/QUOTE] These distinctions are _not_ at all clear. It’s a recipe for disaster, frankly. I haven’t yet read anything that amounts to much more than, “We’ll know ‘too far’ when we see it.” How in world do any of you think this (quite legitimate) confusion could result in anything but _more_ problems? Most warnings will have to be based on these admittedly fuzzy lines, and each one will just stir the pot more. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/63 "2009-02-24T20:28:10Z")
Since we have Dopers from all over the world, which cultural standard now applies? Chicago? South Side? Atlanta? London? Sydney? Cape Town? At the very least, you could have waited a year after George Carlin’s death [to issue the new rules](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_dirty_words). We are now back to 1972. Or perhaps the SDMB is now [officially frozen in 1977](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark). ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/64 "2009-02-24T20:30:20Z")
I’d offer my opinion, but I honestly have no idea how to do it under the current rules. ---
**Author:** ![Ed\_Zotti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/fbc32d/32.png) [@Ed\_Zotti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ed_Zotti)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/65 "2009-02-24T20:31:54Z")
> [@TroubleAgain](#): > > I would like this clarified as well, please. How do these stack up? > > [ul] > [li]Telling someone they are insane or living in a dreamworld [/li][li]Telling them they have a martyr complex[/li][li]Calling someone a liar [/li][li]Asking if they forgot their meds this morning[/li][/ul] > > Those are pretty insulting, but do they count as abusive? > > [For the record, I typically do not insult or abuse, whether in the Pit or elsewhere, but I just want to know so I don’t get banned if I do get angry enough to insult.] I don’t want to get into a protracted discussion of hypotheticals, but none of the above strikes me as abusive. > [@Giraffe](#): > > I think this is one of the things that is causing the most confusion. **Ed** , could you clarify this? For example, let’s say I post a political opinion in the Pit someone strongly disagrees with – which, if any, of the following would be viewed as abusive under the new rule? > > 1. Go to hell, **Giraffe**. > 2. Go to hell, **Giraffe** , you douchebag. > 3. Go to hell, **Giraffe** , you fat ugly loser. > 4. Go to hell, **Giraffe** , you dripping vagina face. > 5. Go to hell, **Giraffe** , you asshole. > 6. Go to hell, **Giraffe** , you diseased smegma-encrusted urethra. > > I know it’s annoying to have to play semantics, but I really think it’s necessary to give people a clearer sense of behavior you are trying to eliminate. 1, no. 2-5, offhand yes. ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/66 "2009-02-24T20:35:13Z")
So “you ass” is in, and “you asshole” is out. Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/67 "2009-02-24T20:35:15Z")
I hope this is permissible under the current rules. > [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > On the question of no abusive remarks at other posters: > Well, we knew there’d be over-reaction. I’m sorry you guys are all so put upon. I really am. But if you knew everybody here would be unhappy (or “overreact” as you so charmingly put it) why didn’t you think this through a bit more? > [@](#): > > Look, we’re not saying you can’t insult other posters. Yes, you are. > [@](#): > > We’re saying that there’s a line (however fuzzy.) “You’re a jerk” is acceptable; “Fuck yourself” is not. “You’re stupid” is fine; “You’re a cunt” is not. It’s a question of insult vs abuse. There is a difference, and it’s usually pretty clear. We’re not cutting out insults, we’re cutting out viciousness and abusiveness. There _might_ be a difference, and it _might_ be pretty clear, but the distinctions you are making right now are neither clear nor clarifying anything. I don’t know why insulting a poster’s intelligence is seen as somehow better than saying “fuck yourself” or “fuck off.” And no, I don’t think people are overreacting by asking for a clarification that makes sense. All we have on this board is our words. We are constantly sending and receiving communication without the benefit of tone, facial expression, or even the luxury of knowing who is on the other end of our conversation. When you traffic completely in words, suddenly the words you’re allowed to use, and the words you’re not allowed to use, become extremely important. What’s the difference between “Fuck you, you idiot” and “Last night, after I wiped my penis off on your sister’s mouth, I mentioned that your point is quite a ridiculous one”? Is there one? The second one doesn’t feature “fuck” or “cunt” or anything “naughty.” > [@](#): > > Are we going to define it? Sure, if someone would like to draft up the 700-page document… which would still not be fine enough. We’ve got along pretty well with “don’t be a jerk” without having to define “jerk,” we don’t see why we can’t get along on “don’t be abusive” without having to define it. It will depend on context, at a minimum. I know this has been the standard response since the very beginning of this board, but it doesn’t make it any less absurd. If you want to create new rules that not only change the tone of a forum, but the entire _purpose_ of said forum, you got to give us more than this. > [@](#): > > We’ve always had limits on insults in terms of racism, sexism, etc. “You ass” is OK, “You nigger” is not. No one (well, only a couple of people) have any problems with this. The internal discussion amongst the mods has always been, it’s OK to duke it out, but there are Marquess of Queensbury rules. Yeah, no, I’m not buying it. I’ve seen “cunt” used around here without so much as a mention from a moderator, and that’s about the worst thing you can call a woman in the US. > [@](#): > > Those things don’t happen often. The Pit will still be very much the Pit. No, it won’t. > [@](#): > > We’re limiting what has, in the past, been a very small percentage of posts. So why make up a bunch of ridiculous rules that affects everybody if it’s just a small percentage of posts and a handful of trouble makers? > [@](#): > > And, please note, we’re very carefully saying that we’re not about to take serious immediate action on these. The bannable offense is repeatedly failing to listen to moderators. Than why make up new rules at all? A whole lot of people are going to be caught in the crossfire. Either that, or the rules will be completely impotent, with the mods having no real ability to act. You either got to enforce them (and thus screw over a bunch of people for various reasons) or admit they’re ridiculous and let them go. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/68 "2009-02-24T20:35:54Z")
“Go to hell, **Ed** ” So that’s OK, right? ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/69 "2009-02-24T20:37:31Z")
> [@Ed\_Zotti](#): > > 1, no. 2-5, offhand yes. I see, thank you for the reply. If I may make a suggestion, you may want simply to remove the part about encouraging “creative insults”. In my experience, people often view creative insults as those which are similar to my #5, i.e. light on swearwords but full of vulgar imagery. Mind you, I still think there is going to be loads of confusion about what constitutes abuse, but this is a start toward clarification. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/70 "2009-02-24T20:39:03Z")
Wow… traffic and ad revenue must be spiking today. I wonder if this is an “Old Coke” / “New Coke” marketing ploy? They’ll get another bump when, later, they announce the change back to the way things were. Just a thought. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/71 "2009-02-24T20:39:05Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > On the question of no abusive remarks at other posters: > Well, we knew there’d be over-reaction. Look, we’re not saying you can’t insult other posters. We’re saying that there’s a line (however fuzzy.) “You’re a jerk” is acceptable; “Fuck yourself” is not. “You’re stupid” is fine; “You’re a cunt” is not. It’s a question of insult vs abuse. There is a difference, and it’s usually pretty clear. We’re not cutting out insults, we’re cutting out viciousness and abusiveness. > > Are we going to define it? Sure, if someone would like to draft up the 700-page document… which would still not be fine enough. Is the distinction you want to preserve between use of obscenities/vulgarities vs. insults not using those terms, or is it more than that? Because “no directing obscenities at another poster” is a clearer standard. Otherwise, I honestly don’t think there is a clear understanding of what is acceptable and what is not. And if there is no clear definition up front, one will emerge over time based on our collective perception of what garners a warning and what passes unremarked. A definition is going to happen either way. And this - > [@](#): > > Well, we knew there’d be over-reaction. I think is an unfortunate remark. If the purpose of the thread is discussion, it does no good to characterize it right off the bat as “over-reaction”. I think it would really help if we could all take a step back and try very hard not to react defensively. And yes, I am fully aware that my first reaction to the new rules was not very measured. My apologies for that. I was wrong. May I respectfully request that the mods try to ignore the automatic negativity and see if there are any reasonable suggestions for improvement of these new rules? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/72 "2009-02-24T20:41:49Z")
“you asshole” is not ok? ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/73 "2009-02-24T20:42:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And this - I think is an unfortunate remark. If the purpose of the thread is discussion, it does no good to characterize it right off the bat as “over-reaction”. I don’t know what posts C K Dexter Haven is thinking of, but I’ve already seen people saying that this ruins the SDMB, that this is the final nail in the coffin of the message board, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/74 "2009-02-24T20:42:56Z")
I concur with **Giraffe**. If that’s the new standard, then it’s disingenuous to say that “creative insults are encouraged.” I also don’t see how anyone can say with a straight face that this won’t fundamentally change not just the Pit, but the board as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/75 "2009-02-24T20:43:46Z")
> [@Ed\_Zotti](#): > > I don’t want to get into a protracted discussion of hypotheticals, but none of the above strikes me as abusive. > > 1, no. 2-5, offhand yes. Not trying to play gotcha here but between this and **C K Dexter Haven** ’s post on what he would and wouldn’t find acceptable, I hope you can see where individual mods’ and admins’ preferences are going to cause arbitrary problems for posters who are sincerely trying to toe the line. “You’re stupid” is ok. “You’re a fat ugly loser” is not. “You’re an ass” is ok. “You’re an asshole” is not. “Fuck off” isn’t ok, but “Go to hell” is. It really does sound like we need a 700 page book and a ruling on each potential insult to keep it all straight. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/76 "2009-02-24T20:43:53Z")
How about a different idea? How about everyone take five, go do something else, and then come back, maybe tomorrow, and talk about it with rationality (both “sides” included in this suggestion, though so far, one of the sides seems to be pretty even-tempered and measured in its responses). It would be good practice for the new Pit. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/77 "2009-02-24T20:44:36Z")
1. No obscenities in thread titles. This has never been a rule even outside the Pit. Do you anticipate gaining more children as members as a result of (in conjunction with the other changes) making the board more family-safe? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/78 "2009-02-24T20:45:10Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > I don’t know what posts C K Dexter Haven is thinking of, but I’ve already seen people saying that this ruins the SDMB, that this is the final nail in the coffin of the message board, etc. If you’re talking about me, I said it was the first nail in the lid of the coffin. I’d open a pit thread to point out your sub-par counting skills, but it would just bore everyone to tears. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/79 "2009-02-24T20:45:44Z")
In my time, walking to and fro upon the world, I’ve seen and heard of some really bad idea. A land war in Asia. Matching wits with a Cecilian when death is on the line. Tequila and bongwater with a twist. This is a really bad idea. Like Godzilla is a really big lizard. Terrible, awful, horrible, no good. Repent! ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/80 "2009-02-24T20:47:53Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > I don’t know what posts C K Dexter Haven is thinking of, but I’ve already seen people saying that this ruins the SDMB, that this is the final nail in the coffin of the message board, etc. Pretty much does, IMO. And that’s no over-reaction–The Pit was a draw to this board. It was fun to read, sometimes fun to post in. Not so much now. Which, for me, leaves only the odd GQ question and the very occassional Great Debate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256.md?page=5)