# Pit rules have been revised **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [February 24, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256 "2009-02-24T19:34:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/161 "2009-02-24T21:57:05Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I’ve had to do a lot of corporate training, and one thing that comes up pretty often is how not to handle angry customers/clients. The #1 thing that you absolutely do not say under any circumstances, precisely because it sounds so condescending, insincere, and dismissive? “Relax.” Right next to words to the effect of “We knew there’d be an overreaction” I would suggest, respectfully, that if you indeed wish to ‘raise the tone’ of the board, it should start w/admonishing administrators who post condescending shit like the above. And I also want a pony. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/162 "2009-02-24T22:01:26Z")
BTW are we still allowed to abuse institutions and outsiders in the Pit? (Rule 2 says only ‘other posters’ may not be abused.) For instance, I bid the DEA a hearty fuck you recently in a Pit thread. Would this now be disallowed? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/163 "2009-02-24T22:01:49Z")
Ed, this BBQ Pit change isn’t completely out of the blue. You’ve been referencing changes for awhile and I’ve seen you frequently refer to some instances in which things have gotten out of hand. Can you please link to those instances, and explain what was out of hand about them? If you’ve already done this, I apologize for missing it; can you please link to the post in which you did it? Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/164 "2009-02-24T22:03:08Z")
I suppose my problem with this is that I can see what happens on other message boards that try to maintain some level of civility, for no other reason than because they think civility is an unambiguous good. What happens is, civility becomes a tool. Posters will poke and prod at other posters, staying within the realms of “creative insults” but infuriating their targets until the target finally snaps…at which point the original poster pulls out the civility card and goes “Why are you being so meeeean?” Or better yet, we’ll have the precious little flowers who can’t distinguish between abuse and disagreement with their opinions, and won’t that be fun when they inevitably try to game the new system? Fuck civility. Seriously. On the internet, civility is just a weapon and fetishizing it just enables assholes to abuse it. And conversely there are times when abuse is the appropriate response. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/165 "2009-02-24T22:04:17Z")
> [@Ed Zotti](#): > > We hope people will appreciate the intent - we’re trying to establish some minimal level of civility in the Pit. With due respect, Ed, this sounds like a contradiction in terms. Message board flaming forums are supposed to be reserved specifically _for_ uncivility – for _flaming_. They’re supposed to be the metaphorical equivalent of a parking lot you can take it outside to, and not disturb the patrons in the library. It honestly sounds like you’re essentially saying there will no longer be any flaming allowed anywhere on this board – not even in the flame forum. If that’s the case, then just get rid of the forum. Trying to switch over to some kind of Canadian rules flame forum is like drinking non-alcoholic beer or watching _Showgirls_ on commercial television – kind of pointless. In all my years as a member here faithfully reupping the subscriptions every year, I’ve never once complained about an administrative decision or even with a mod ruling, but I think this is a really bad idea. Flame pits are supposed to be uncivil. That’s why they exist. I can live with a rule that takes the obscenity out of the thread titles and confines it to the content of the thread, but imposing “civil” flaming is an absurdity. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/166 "2009-02-24T22:05:11Z")
> [@Orbifold](#): > > And conversely there are times when abuse is the appropriate response. That’s a good point - can we not even insult 9/11 deniers anymore? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/167 "2009-02-24T22:07:10Z")
> [@Ed\_Zotti](#): > > My apologies for the typo. I meant 2 through 6. Relax. Even my husband knows better than to tell me to “relax” when I feel legitimately upset, and he don’t always get things so quick. I’d rather be told to “fuck off” than to “relax”. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/168 "2009-02-24T22:08:05Z")
I don’t post often in the Pit and I don’t think I’ve ever insulted another poster, so these new rules have little to no impact on me. But I find the line between “insult” and “abuse” too subtle and too subjective. I’ll also note that the reaction here is exactly like what you see on MMORPG forums after a patch is announced. Some people shout gloom and doom and completely lose focus. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/169 "2009-02-24T22:08:08Z")
> [@Ed\_Zotti](#): > > The question you raise comes up all the time. One of the purposes of the Pit is to let quarreling posters have it out. As I said before, we’re simply establishing the equivalent of the Marquess of Queensberry rules for such things. It seems to go a little to far, and is turning the boxing ring into a Chuck E Cheese ball pit. We need a place to go when we get angry at another poster, that place is supposed to be the pit. If you can’t be a bit abusive, and need to be business like about it, it may as well be in MPSIMS. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/170 "2009-02-24T22:09:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > … some kind of Canadian rules flame forum … Minnesotan, I think. 😉 In my four months in Ottawa, I was snapped at more often than I’d been the previous four years in Denver. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/171 "2009-02-24T22:09:19Z")
I realize that this isn’t a poll, and I strongly suspect that our opinions don’t count for shit, but I just wanted to endorse what \*\*Dio \*\*said directly above. And pretty much what \*\*Cisco \*\*said. With these rules changes, there really is no Pit anymore. Civil incivility makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![DudleyGarrett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DudleyGarrett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DudleyGarrett)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/172 "2009-02-24T22:09:39Z")
Wow, even the typical brown-nosers are up in arms. Ed, certainly this must tell you that something’s wrong with your new rules. ---
**Author:** ![Risha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@Risha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Risha)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/173 "2009-02-24T22:10:13Z")
Speaking as someone who’s never Pitted a fellow poster or mod, and used “f-ing” instead of “fucking” in the title of her last thread - I have absolutely no idea of what the difference is between insulting and abusive is, at least as you are defining it. I’m fine with the rest, but rule #2 is absolutely untenable. Mostly because I’ll never be able to insult anyone in the Pit ever again without wondering if I’m breaking the rules. I’m not going to claim that the Pit is my main reason for being on the Dope (though it has been the sole source of interesting discussion for at least the last three days this week). But there’s no longer any reason for me to go in there, so I’m guessing that you’re probably losing some percentage of my page views. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/174 "2009-02-24T22:11:32Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It honestly sounds like you’re essentially saying there will no longer be any flaming allowed anywhere on this board – not even in the flame forum. If that’s the case, then just get rid of the forum. Trying to switch over to some kind of Canadian rules flame forum is like drinking non-alcoholic beer or watching _Showgirls_ on commercial television – kind of pointless. I believe it’s worse than this - apparently it’s fine to be abusive to outsiderss all we want, it’s just other posters we have to curb our language. So, random crap about the Octo mommy is okey dokey, but should she sign up here, she’d be off limits. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > In all my years as a member here faithfully reupping the subscriptions every year, I’ve never once complained about an administrative decision or even with a mod ruling, but I think this is a really bad idea. Flame pits are supposed to be uncivil. That’s why they exist. I can live with a rule that takes the obscenity out of the thread titles and confines it to the content of the thread, but imposing “civil” flaming is an absurdity. Ditto for me. But so far, the fact that even long time loyal posters who generally are supportive of staff, don’t get into trouble, \*\*still \*\* think that this is a super bad idea, is still just lumped under the condescending “relax” and “we knew there’d be an overreaction”. Several of us have even posted that we found the above comments to be insulting and abusive, doesn’t matter. Or at least uncommented on as yet. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/175 "2009-02-24T22:13:15Z")
Also a request, can we rename it to **Ed’s Fluffy Happy-Time BBQ Playpen**? I think that would be much more accurately descriptive. ---
**Author:** ![DudleyGarrett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DudleyGarrett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DudleyGarrett)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/176 "2009-02-24T22:14:21Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Also a request, can we rename it to **Ed’s Fluffy Happy-Time BBQ Playpen**? I think that would be much more accurately descriptive. BBQ doesn’t work there. **Cotton Candy** is better. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/177 "2009-02-24T22:14:44Z")
> [@Orbifold](#): > > What happens is, civility becomes a tool. Posters will poke and prod at other posters, staying within the realms of “creative insults” but infuriating their targets until the target finally snaps…at which point the original poster pulls out the civility card and goes “Why are you being so meeeean?” Or better yet, we’ll have the precious little flowers who can’t distinguish between abuse and disagreement with their opinions, and won’t that be fun when they inevitably try to game the new system? This is probably my biggest concern. One thing I liked about the Pit was the fact that posters were expected to handle things themselves for the most part and not run to the moderators to remove opinions or statements they didn’t like. And the people who will have the easiest time gaming the system will be those who don’t really believe what they’re posting anyway and are just trying to get a reaction. If you really care about an issue, someone repeatedly posting lies about it is going to make you angry, and angry people lose their tempers. One careful troll who knows how to walk the line will be able to cause a lot of frustration, if not warnings and bannings. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/178 "2009-02-24T22:15:28Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Trying to switch over to some kind of Canadian rules . . . I’ve never heard this term before, and I don’t know what it means, but I’m glad I wasn’t drinking anything when I read this, because I fucking laughed. > [@DudleyGarrett](#): > > Wow, even the typical brown-nosers are up in arms. Ed, certainly this must tell you that something’s wrong with your new rules. Two of his moderators quitting didn’t seem to tell him much. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/179 "2009-02-24T22:16:20Z")
Just Standing Up and Being Counted; this is stupid and unworkable. ---
**Author:** ![Ed\_Zotti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/fbc32d/32.png) [@Ed\_Zotti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ed_Zotti)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256/180 "2009-02-24T22:16:31Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > BTW are we still allowed to abuse institutions and outsiders in the Pit? (Rule 2 says only ‘other posters’ may not be abused.) > > For instance, I bid the DEA a hearty fuck you recently in a Pit thread. Would this now be disallowed? No. The rule refers only to comments directed at other posters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-rules-have-been-revised/487256.md?page=10)