# Pit thread for Martin\_Hyde {He has been BANNED} **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 24, 2022, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045 "2022-05-24T22:52:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/241 "2022-05-26T00:15:51Z")
I wish I could find the thread because I wanted to flip through it, but I don’t remember the exact phrasing/keywords of the exchange that stuck in my mind. This was, if I had to guess 15+ years ago. Someone asked another poster “Would you give up your guns if it was guaranteed that there would never be another shooting?” and the person said “no” and may have invoked ‘protection’ as their reasoning. IIRC, they weren’t just asking this one person to give up their guns, but the premise was that it meant all guns would magically disappear. I think that’s part of the problem. The ‘gun culture’ is such a part of people’s identity that they just can’t not have one, even if they don’t need one. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/242 "2022-05-26T00:29:08Z")
Wtf? I was replying to your post. I don’t even know who you are, nevermind any exchanges we may have had in the past. Jog on. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/243 "2022-05-26T00:36:57Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > I wish I could find the thread because I wanted to flip through it, but I don’t remember the exact phrasing/keywords of the exchange that stuck in my mind. This was, if I had to guess 15+ years ago. > Someone asked another poster “Would you give up your guns if it was guaranteed that there would never be another shooting?” and the person said “no” [This OP](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crafter-man-author-of-the-two-most-appalling-posts-ive-ever-read-here/644069) (from ten years ago, as it happens; in fact, prompted by discussion of the Sandy Hook massacre). ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/244 "2022-05-26T00:46:31Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Gun deaths are not an existential crisis to the US. > > [@from twitter](#): > > When I was in 3rd grade, we had a code red drill. While we were all huddled together in the dark, someone started banging on the door asking to be let in. The teacher whispered to us, asking us what to do. I said let them in, and the teacher told me to go open the door, then. 1/2 > > 2/2 > I opened it, and before I even recognized that it was my principal dressed in full black, she put two fingers to my head and said “bang, you’re dead.” [https://twitter.com/erinhahn\_author/status/1529244518737903616](https://twitter.com/erinhahn_author/status/1529244518737903616) > [@from twitter](#): > > What they don’t tell you is teachers are told in training that they have to lock out any of their students who are out of the classroom, _out of the classroom_. Even if they beg and bang on the door. Because there could be a shooter using them to access your classroom. > > [@from twitter](#): > > TW - gun violence, real life > > In September, a student came to the high school where I taught English and started a fight, firing the weapon he’d brought in his backpack three times. My classroom was on the opposite side of campus - it was lunchtime, my room was empty. 1/ > > Within minutes, there were 40+ kids in my room, the majority of them I didn’t know. They had sprinted from across campus. One student, with his foot in a cast, was carried between two others. They’d left their bags wherever they were. All of them were seized by sheer terror. 2/ > > Once in my room, they moved as they’d been trained. Closed the blinds, turned off the lights, moved filing cabinets and desks to barricade the doors. Ruffled through the drawers and armed themselves with school supplies - scissors and sharpened pencils - ready to fight. 3/ > > … > > For months after the incident, I had terrible nightmares. It wasn’t the sound of gunshots, it was the tear stained faces of my kids. It was the smell of puke. It was my student aid trembling in my arms. It was the thought of losing them. 8/ > > … > > But on that day in September, if somebody had been a danger to my kids. I would have fought for them. I would have shielded them. I would have died for them. Because I love them. Because they deserve to live. And so it easily could have been me. 14/ > > … > > But I quit teaching in December. I deserve to live too. Without the weight of a broken society on my shoulders and real threats to my health and safety in my classroom every day. And I miss the kids. So so bad. But how can you fill them up from an empty, broken vessel? 15/ …I think the words “broken society” says it all. This _is_ an existential crisis to the US. It goes beyond individual school shootings. We are talking about a generation of kids, of teachers, of parents, having to live with trauma, live with guilt, living with school principals dressed in full black, who think nothing of putting two fingers to the head of a _child_ and saying “bang, you’re dead.” Of _kids_, having to learn how to close the blinds, turned off the lights, move filing cabinets and desks to barricade, who have to think of arming themselves with school supplies - scissors and sharpened pencils - ready to fight. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/245 "2022-05-26T00:59:09Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > (If memory serves, the Mod was a gun fan.) yeah, I think I know the one. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/246 "2022-05-26T01:05:09Z")
Sure thing, baby killer. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/247 "2022-05-26T01:13:43Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > I have opinions on this idiotic point of view, certainly, but I really, really, really wanted to call **Martin** fucknugget, an asshat, a blithering bawbag. Join me, if you like. I too think he’s a fucknugget, asshat and blithering bawbag. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/248 "2022-05-26T01:16:10Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > (If memory serves, the Mod was a gun fan.) This wouldn’t be the same gun fan ex mod who created the _Positively Safe Space For Ammosexuals Of The Day_ thread and dictated the kinds of responses that were allowed in it, would it? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/249 "2022-05-26T01:18:07Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > So, it might not stop violence today, but what happens 10 or 20 or 100 years after the ban? > This process could likely be accelerated by very stiff penalties for possession of a gun (or repair parts or ammo) as well as government sponsored, no questions asked, buyback programs. > > So, no, it’s not going to stop gun violence today, but overtime, I think it will. And the longer we put it off, the longer before that clock starts ticking. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/250 "2022-05-26T03:13:30Z")
Alright, those of you criticizing Martin Hyde for admitting he’s willing to accept some level innocent death to keep guns legal, I would invite you to please read [my post here](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-there-x-amount-of-mass-shootings-that-would-change-gun-supporters-minds-or-is-that-the-wrong-way-to-think/964380/67). He’s not doing anything that you don’t already do about many issues, it’s just that he has the intellectual integrity to admit it. You’re calling him a monster because he thinks guns are worth it and you don’t, not because he’s making any sort of different calculation than you do one dozens of issues. An alcohol prohibitionist would have just as much right to call you monsters for your endless parade of dead children killed by alcohol-related factors. They could point to every cute kid killed by a drunk driver and say “when will the carnage stop? Why are you willing to let children die just so you can get drunk?” and have just as much a point as you do attacking him. Do any of you have the intellectual integrity to admit that there are things you prefer to be legal even though the availability/legality of that thing will cost innocent lives? Or are you going to continue to pretend that nothing you enjoy, advocate, or otherwise want available results in innocent deaths? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/251 "2022-05-26T03:21:28Z")
Fuck you, douche ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/252 "2022-05-26T05:36:23Z")
I think a healthy majority of the people that would be interested in considerably stricter drunk driving laws would also be in favor of more progressive gun control laws. People can be in favor of more than one thing, even if they don’t make a point of always mentioning one when discussing the other. People can also be in favor of something even if they’re not vocal about it. But, in any case, responding to ‘why can’t we ban guns’ with ‘what about drinking, why don’t you ban drinking, it’s dangerous too’, is nothing more than whataboutism. Instead of just bringing up that argument in gun threads where people may be quick to dismiss it, not because they’re worried about a gotcha, but because it’s off topic, maybe start a new thread with it and see where a dedicated discussion goes. Imagine you had a loved one get killed by a drunk driver and it became a passion for you. How would you feel if every time you tried to discuss the drunk driving problem, people would try to shift the discussion so that it was focused on why you don’t care about the [some other] problem. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/253 "2022-05-26T07:02:31Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > But, in any case, responding to ‘why can’t we ban guns’ with ‘what about drinking, why don’t you ban drinking, it’s dangerous too’, is nothing more than whataboutism. No, it is not. Just declaring whataboutism because you don’t have a real defense of an analogy is really lazy. I’m not saying anything even remotely like “we can’t do anything about guns until we do something about \_\_\_\_” What I’m saying is that all the people that are saying “oh my god, I can’t believe that that person is willing to have innocent people die so they can keep their access to \_\_\_\_”, and if that \_\_\_ is guns, you think that person is a monster, but you are completely oblivious that using the exact same logic, if that thing is alcohol, you are the monster. I am not shifting any discussion. I am saying “I am willing to have innocent people die so that I can have access to something I don’t really need but want to have” is a very common belief held by almost everyone, and pretending that it’s some extremist, unconscionable view unique to gun owners is delusional. It lacks the self awareness that you, too, are willing to have innocent people die because you don’t want to give something up. Every invective everyone in this thread has thrown around at Martin because he’s willing to admit that dead people is a price we pay for things that can be dangerous being available can be thrown right back at them for things where they willingly make that very same tradeoff. He just has the intellectual integrity to see it for what it is and admit it, whereas you are all delusional that you do that exact same thing. ---
**Author:** ![omenran](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omenran/32/3318_2.png) [@omenran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omenran)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/254 "2022-05-26T07:18:34Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > What an honest person is saying when they say something like that is they recognize that safety is almost always a trade off on one side or the other. if we had literally 0 guns in America, I think we would have fewer suicides and homicides. I don’t know how much fewer. But let’s assume that even with what I would call rational / sane gun control policies we could get the number down to X amount, I am saying that that’s a trade off that I am fine with making. 13,500 gun homicides is not a number I am fine with, I want to see it lower. If you put me to the sword and said “pick 13.5k gun homicides or 0 guns”, okay, if you force me to make a complete black and white choice, I’m picking gun rights. But I don’t live in a world where that is the only way we can approach things. You know, there’s a lot I can agree with in this paragraph, but the part I can’t agree with I think shows a very fundamental divide between your views and mine. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > If you put me to the sword and said “pick 13.5k gun homicides or 0 guns”, okay, if you force me to make a complete black and white choice, I’m picking gun rights. This. I can’t grasp how in a hypothetical situation anyone can pick a gun over the lives of 13,500 people. Does human life matter so little to you? It’s your hypothetical, but saying you have the choice between killing thirteen thousand people and having guns- and you pick guns over their lives. I know that’s not a choice in reality, and you seem open to taking steps to reduce and lessen deaths in concrete ways and I can respect that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/255 "2022-05-26T07:23:26Z")
Lol @ you American wankers. Still “debating” guns in an everlasting circlejerk. Even when they are the leading cause of death for your children. Idiots. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/256 "2022-05-26T07:24:52Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > You guys wanted to post a bunch of feel-good nonsense about how terrible it all is, how America sucks, gun owners suck, Republicans suck, etc etc. And I simply pointed out that it’s not effective. That it’s a loser for Democrats politically. That’s mostly true. The “America sucks” part is an overly broad generalization, though. America sucks only to the extent that gun owners suck and Republicans suck. It’s a loser for Democrats politically because so far the aforementioned sucking gun owners, their lobbyists, and Republicans have dominated the political messaging and disinformation campaigns. The American gun insanity is very much akin to the (lack of) universal health care insanity: a nation where everyone has the right to be shot, but not the right to health care. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Being honest about the fact that I am willing to accept a higher risk to society for a certain liberty, is simply being truthful. I find myself agreeing with you a second time here. Yes, you’re being honest. So were the Nazis about how they felt about Jews. They just wanted a pure Aryan nation. But again, when the subject is guns, and you value your guns more than human lives including the lives of small children, there are consequences for such reprehensibly evil misplaced priorities. You’re a prime example of how “responsible law-abiding gun owners” are in fact the core of the gun violence problem in America. There ought to be a special place in hell for people like you. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/257 "2022-05-26T07:50:04Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > What I’m saying is that all the people that are saying “oh my god, I can’t believe that that person is willing to have innocent people die so they can keep their access to \_\_\_\_”, and if that \_\_\_ is guns, you think that person is a monster, but you are completely oblivious that using the exact same logic, if that thing is alcohol, you are the monster. This is an excellent point. Also, it’s quite telling that none of the posters attacking Martin have asked him _why_ he believes (as I do) that the right to bear arms is worth preserving despite the human cost. ---
**Author:** ![Drsunflower1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drsunflower1/32/12711_2.png) [@Drsunflower1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drsunflower1)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/258 "2022-05-26T08:00:17Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > This is an excellent point. Also, it’s quite telling that none of the posters attacking Martin have asked him _why_ he believes (as I do) that the right to bear arms is worth preserving despite the human cost I did, actually. Still waiting for the answer. > [@Drsunflower1](#): > > My sincere question is this: What if you were one of those parents who lost their child? Would you still be okay with an abstract “inevitability”? To clarify: if so, why? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/259 "2022-05-26T08:08:33Z")
> [@WalterBishop](#): > > This is an excellent point. It’s a totally crappy point, on several different levels. Your inclination to abuse alcohol mostly just endangers _ **you** _. Your inclination to be a gun nut endangers _ **everyone else** _. To the extent that alcohol abuse can potentially endanger others, as in drunk driving, that can be managed through appropriate policy and enforcement. In my country, the DUI rate has been reduced by 70% in the past 30 years. In the US, the rate of gun-related deaths has gone UP by 40% in just the past 20 years, and has always been far, far greater than anywhere else in the developed world. And the incidence of mass shootings is skyrocketing. The other point here is that alcohol prohibition (remember capital-P Prohibition?) doesn’t work. The US tried it. The rest of the civilized world never did. But gun control does work. The US doesn’t have it in any meaningful way. The rest of the civilized world does. And the facts dramatically prove that it works. ---
**Author:** ![WalterBishop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/aeb1de/32.png) [@WalterBishop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WalterBishop)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/260 "2022-05-26T08:09:07Z")
> [@Drsunflower1](#): > > I did, actually. Still waiting for the answer My apologies. I missed that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045.md?page=14)