# Pit thread for Martin\_Hyde {He has been BANNED} **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 24, 2022, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045 "2022-05-24T22:52:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/281 "2022-05-26T14:52:39Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But we don’t just shrug our shoulders and say that we have to accept the devastating impacts of racism because of our history. Honestly, a bunch of us do exactly that. Also healthcare. Generally it’s people who loudly proclaim that America is the bestest country ever. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/282 "2022-05-26T14:55:53Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > What I’m saying is that all the people that are saying “oh my god, I can’t believe that that person is willing to have innocent people die so they can keep their access to \_\_\_\_”, and if that \_\_\_ is guns, you think that person is a monster, but you are completely oblivious that using the exact same logic, if that thing is alcohol, you are the monster. You missed the point. What people are outraged about in this context is assertions by gun rights supporters that they would not give up their guns even if doing so would somehow magically guarantee that there would be no gun murders ever again. There are no alcohol users in this discussion asserting that they would refuse to give up alcohol even if doing so would somehow magically guarantee that there would be no alcohol-abuse-related deaths ever again. So your accusations of hypocrisy are beside the point. The larger and more realistic point—namely, that in real life all engagement with any potentially dangerous objects involves trade-offs between risks and benefits—is valid, and I don’t see anybody disputing it. It’s just that there’s strong disagreement about what types and extents of trade-offs we as a society should be willing to accept. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/283 "2022-05-26T15:03:36Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Generally it’s people who loudly proclaim that America is the bestest country ever. Ah, American Exceptionalism. I don’t know of any other two words in the English language that excuse as many failings. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/284 "2022-05-26T15:05:29Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Honestly, a bunch of us do exactly that. True, but not by openly appealing to the influence of history and culture. Not among those who are willing to agree that racism is bad, at least. Sure, there are plenty of mostly-non-racist people who are completely uninterested in doing anything to remedy the pernicious persistent impacts of our white-supremacist history, and are happy to just go on pretending the racial playing field is already level. But they’re not saying “Eh, it’s unfortunate but we just can’t help being persistently destructively racist, because racial discrimination is so baked into our history and culture.” The people who are openly admitting that racial discrimination is baked into our history and culture are the ones who don’t object to persistent destructive racism and white supremacism. They’re all for it, in fact. That’s different from the gun-rights advocates who are engaging in this weird combination of denouncing the bad outcomes (e.g., school shootings) while simultaneously explicitly declaring that the influence of our history and culture makes it impossible to fix them. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/285 "2022-05-26T15:12:40Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > while simultaneously explicitly declaring that the influence of our history and culture makes it impossible to fix them. And this “history and culture” excuse is bullshit anyway, as pointed out earlier. It’s impossible to fix because a powerful industry lobby group has effective total control over a major political party, and that party is refusing to do the will of the people and establish reasonable and effective measures (used by the rest of the civilized world) to reduce mass killings of children. Like many things in life - follow the money trail. It’s all about the cash in corporate pockets, used to purchase politicians to enable those same corporations to make more cash. The children are just meaningless collateral damage to them. And these corporations and politicians who are all about the cash are also enjoying the help and cooperation of the useful idiots who buy into their bullshit propaganda about how it’s all about the USA’s holy history and culture, and there is nothing we can do about it. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/286 "2022-05-26T15:14:49Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > It’s impossible to fix because a powerful industry lobby group has effective total control over a major political party, and that party is refusing to do the will of the people and establish reasonable and effective measures (used by the rest of the civilized world) to reduce mass killings of children. Which leads us to a situation where the claim is made that if a party adopts a position that is wanted by about 80% of the population, it will lose them votes. I don’t know whether that claim is true or not, but if it is, America is just too stupid to justify existing any longer. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/287 "2022-05-26T15:17:18Z")
Winner, winner, chicken dinner. This is a country where we have to make sure we politely engage with the pro murder children camp. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/288 "2022-05-26T15:18:47Z")
It’s not about what a position is anymore; It’s about how you sell it. A majority of people wanted all the things in the Affordable Care Act. But when it was given the label of “Obamacare”, most were against it. A majority of people want a system that provides assistance to those people who need it, in order to lift them out of poverty and make them productive citizens. But when it is given the label of “socialism”, most are against it. TLDR People are easily manipulated. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/289 "2022-05-26T15:42:59Z")
+1. I hate to say it, but several posters I generally agree with are acting like asses in this thread. Sometimes the guy being accused of “sealioning” really is acting polite and rational while others put words in their mouth and scream invective at them. I’m not going to try to have a real discussion of the underlying issue on post 300 of a Pit thread, but I agree with those who have said that cigarettes and alcohol are good analogies. Public education about the dangers of gun ownership, and social pressure toward making guns unfashionable and “gun culture” an object of ridicule, are going to work better than pushing for sweeping legislative bans. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/290 "2022-05-26T15:55:47Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Sometimes the guy being accused of “sealioning” really is acting polite and rational while others put words in their mouth and scream invective at them. Could you please point out where this happened, specifically, with evidence? No one forced him to say that he was willing to trade other people’s lives in exchange for gun rights. Those were words that came straight from his mouth (or fingers for the pedantic). And yes, sometimes people are just polite, and sometimes people using polite language to advocate for terrible things. The argument that has been made in this thread is that he is of the latter. You can disagree with that argument, but to simply assert as you have is to do exactly as you have just complained, putting words in other people’s mouths. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I’m not going to try to have a real discussion of the underlying issue on post 300 of a Pit thread, but I agree with those who have said that cigarettes and alcohol are good analogies. Except that in those cases, we actually _do_ have laws that get passed to decrease their cost to society. If they were good analogies, then we would have laws passed about guns to decrease _their_ cost to society. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Public education about the dangers of gun ownership, and social pressure toward making guns unfashionable and “gun culture” an object of ridicule, are going to work better than pushing for sweeping legislative bans. Once again, you are guilty of what you just cried foul on. We are not talking about “sweeping legislative bans”, but things like mandatory background checks for all (with very limited exceptions) gun transfers. Something that _is_ supported by a strong majority of the population, including most gun owners. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/291 "2022-05-26T15:59:00Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I hate to say it, but several posters I generally agree with are acting like asses in this thread. Sometimes the guy being accused of “sealioning” really is acting polite and rational while others put words in their mouth and scream invective at them. Saying it was worth trading thousands of children’s lives to maintain current gun rights wasn’t put in anybody’s mouth. That’s a literal quote. And that’s monstrous to most people, no matter how polite or ‘rational’ the presentation. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/292 "2022-05-26T15:59:53Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > things like mandatory background checks for all (with very limited exceptions) gun transfers. Something that _is_ supported by a strong majority of the population, including most gun owners. And the industry gun lobby re-frames these reasonable measures as “gun grabbing”, or “destroying our proud history and culture” and credulous folks just go along with this line of bullshit and repeat it. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/293 "2022-05-26T16:14:18Z")
I’d just like to point out that this is the Pit. The whole reason this thread is here is so that invective could and can be hurled. People are following a playbook though. If they can’t argue against the horrifying things that have been said, then they pivot to the lack of civility. Fuck you assholes. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/294 "2022-05-26T16:17:54Z")
1. Not gonna search through the thread for instances. Yes, he is willing to trade a certain amount of innocent deaths for gun rights. I am willing to trade a certain amount of innocent deaths for my right to drink alcohol and drive cars. Does that make me a horrible, inhuman baby killer? I agree that alcohol and cars both have more socially redeeming aspects than guns do, but thinking in terms of those tradeoffs and being aware of the consequences of your choices are what rational people are supposed to do. 2. We DO have laws that decrease the cost of guns to society. We should have stricter ones, but we certainly do have them. My point is that saying “This is a stupid choice to make, and here’s why” is likely to lead to a more productive discussion than “We are going to take away your right to make that choice”. And as more people come to agree that gun ownership and use are undesirable, it will be easier to pass more stringent laws. 3. Yes, SOME people are talking about moderate and popular positions like universal background checks. Again, not going to look for cites, but I recall at least one person has advocated repealing the Second Amendment, at least one has expressed a wish that no guns exist at all, and several have used rhetoric strongly suggesting that they hate gun owners so much they are prepared to pass whatever laws they possibly can to fuck with them. I’m kind of worried that so many people are channeling their outrage at mass shootings into calling for people to vote Democratic (which of course we should all be doing anyway). Because even if they could get their act together to pass that package of overwhelmingly popular reforms, those reforms aren’t going to produce anything more than a very gradual decline in the level of gun violence over a long period of time. Which doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t bother to do it, just that to the extent that we communicate the message that there is some simple legislation that will completely fix this problem, we’re setting people up for disappointment when we get our reforms passed and there’s no immediately obvious improvement. (I know nobody has explicitly claimed that, but I find it implicit in the tone of many here who appear focused on winning elections and passing legislation to the exclusion of addressing wider cultural factors) ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/295 "2022-05-26T16:38:01Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > The person who started this thread is one of the forum’s infamously lowest quality posters, Just want to specifically say that this is fucked up and wrong. Sunny Daze is a valued member of the community who is always worth listening to. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/296 "2022-05-26T16:53:20Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > others put words in their mouth Oh, yeah, I also hate it when the quote button does that. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/297 "2022-05-26T17:02:23Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > > What I also will say is I don’t embrace immoral actions like you do–you openly have said now you are fine with wishing death on other poster’s friends and family. How dare you think you have any grounds to judge me. > > If you find it easier to argue against **what you wish I had said** than to argue against **[what I’ve actually said](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde/965045/164),** then I won’t stop you. > > But it makes you look like an intellectually dishonest douchebag. Simple truth–we have several posters in this thread that gleefully jumped on the idea of people I personally know being the victims of gun violence. You could say you find that behavior immoral, or you could accept it, and you showed an acceptance of it. That reflects poorly on you. > [@Mijin](#): > > What you’re suggesting is that Dems instead should follow the “whatabout” of FOX news rhetoric and talk about cracking down on crime in the inner cities (as opposed to _regenerating_ or _investing_ in inner cities). Potentially alienating people in many of the most solidly blue districts. > > It’s a terrible idea, and you can tell that it is by the fact that it is also what many on the Right advise democrats to do. What I start with is an actual recognition of where we are. SDMB posters, and frankly it appeals like Democrats at large, believe we are starting from a base where, if a school shooting is terrible enough, emotion-laden appeals focused around the time this tragedy occurs, will “finally move the needle.” Here is what I see–within 24 hours I see Ted Cruz saying “we can’t politicize this tragedy.” I seem Tom Cotton saying “I really hope Democrats don’t try to politicize this tragedy, which they have invariably done my entire time in the Senate.” We see Kellyanne Conway saying “I really hope Democrats don’t pound on the tragedy of these kids dying for political purposes.” Isn’t it weird all of those Republican talking heads are saying basically the same thing? That’s an organized political opposition, it isn’t spur of the moment. This is something they have strategized. And **it has worked well for them.** As best I can see, the Democrats have no answer at all. My suggestion is that frankly, because the battle lines are so entrenched, using these dramatic, emotion-laden events as the “attachment point” to try and talk about gun control is a net loser for the Democrats. Maybe someone can point to meaningful political wins the Democrats have advanced from this tactic and I’d change my mind, but right now, I don’t see that. My idea was that Democrats need a more comprehensive, systemic approach that links to issues of concern that are ever-present in voter’s minds, which I think for example our generally high rate of gun crimes is such a thing. One reason I favor this strategy is right now Republicans win a lot of votes and PR off of the crime issue. Meanwhile, society at large is almost oblivious to the fact that gun crime is at its highest in several deep red states, that several Republican lead major cities (Jacksonville being an example) have much higher crime rates than “war torn hell holes” like San Francisco which are frequent targets of conservative propagandizing. With school shootings, Republicans are offering voters the option to mourn, but refuse to talk about the politics. I think it is harder for them to do that on an issue like general crime because **Republicans can’t stop talking about general crime and politics, so they are at least present on that field of battle** , best case scenario this line of attack seriously undermines a political strategy and political topic that right now primarily favors Republicans. Another scenario maybe it doesn’t do that, but it makes Republican attacks about crime less effective? Or maybe it does nothing. It may genuinely be Democrats just can’t win on this topic at all, but I’m saying they should at least try a different tactic before concluding that. If Democrats truly can’t win on this topic at all then the options for going forward are a lot less appealing. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > You what doesn’t cause people to die? Wishing. > > You know what does cause people to die? The willingness to trade more deaths for gun rights. Except that isn’t how it works at all. Acknowledging that a liberty has a conflict with a pure interest of public safety is simply recognizing the cause and effect of living in a free society. Further, I have never presented it as black and white–that is the hypothetical you guys want. I’m fine responding to it, but it’s a hypothetical. In that hypothetical I am not willing to trade the negatives of full bans of firearm ownership, with the liberty hit. But I am willing to impose fairly serious regulations and controls on legal gun ownership, many policies of which are used throughout Europe and some are even shared with organizations like Everytown for Gun Safety. > [@madmonk28](#): > > What you said here: > > “I also firmly want it understood—I am 100% willing to trade more deaths for gun rights.“ > > Is a tacit admission that you help facilitate murders. Incorrect, see my above response to @Cheesesteak. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Bullshit. You’ve made it abundantly clear that you prioritize your gun fetish over ANY amount of gun deaths, including children (as long as you don’t know them) Incorrect, see previous comments. > [@wguy123](#): > > Wishing for someone to die is as useful as the thoughts and prayers @Martin_Hyde gives the gun murder victims that is he is willing to accept for his gun rights. This is a false narrative, see above commentary. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > Win by margins where one or two conservative democrats can’t stop your whole agenda. I can’t believe “do things that win elections” is so puzzling and offputting to you. But I guess maybe that explains why the democratic party is so incredibly incompetent at being a political party, their base apparently just wants them to DO SOMETHING with whatever is the emotional hot button issue of the month, not actually engage in thoughtful, savvy political strategy. Right, let’s be clear as to what drives this pit thread. Despite a thread being started in P&E, despite it clearly being labeled and intended as a thread to discuss politics, the people foaming at the mouth in this thread wanted no such thing. They wanted a venue to attack gun owners, gun rights, call them all “Freedummies”, blast Republicans, compare America to other countries to advance a narrative that America is terrible and we need to evolve into Glowing Balls of European Light. I can frankly get on board with blasting Republicans and critiquing the United States, but a lot of the rest of it is just frankly recreational outrage. I don’t like recreational outrage, period. I chose to stake out a position more firmly rooted in what I feel are the realities of the politics of the issue–again, in a P&E thread **about politics.** Specifically in part because I like to advance the general argument that, as you say, **you need to win elections to set policy** , something that Democrats seem **almost hostile to hearing.** The response that came (which included death wishes directed at innocent people who committed the sin of being known by me), is because someone interrupted the kabuki theater / performance art. Someone shared a political opinion the histrionic mob disliked, and then they got to do something many of them (like @MrDibble ) love even more–they get to start rambling on about how the offender is racist, spew ad hominems at them for dozens of posts et cetera. This is performative trolling from people that have no interest in real discussion, and showing how they circle the wagons around actual death wishes being made, shows the meager nature of their morality and character. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > fap fap fap fap fap “Everyone look at meeeee!” I don’t really know much about @octopus but it is hilarious to see you post this while ignoring the behavior of the crowd of “usual suspects” in this thread who are literally doing the exact thing you are alleging here: @MrDibble , @crowmanyclouds , @Joey_P , @k9bfriender, @Czarcasm – and yourself, this is what you are. > [@steronz](#): > > Sealioning in a thread about Sealioning. How meta. I didn’t know this term existed until the other day, and when I heard it and the context in which it was mentioned, it made sense to me. But now it’s starting to look like the SDMB just uses it to mean “someone posting things I disagree with, in a way where I look stupid because my response is to just spew profanity and insults while they make actual arguments.” > [@Chingon](#): > > I love all of these ‘enlightened centrists’ who push the same solution over and over again. I wouldn’t advocate pandering to Repubilcans–people who are still committed Republicans are likely not meaningfully persuadable. But we have a Senate, we have an electoral college, and we have a House that is malapportioned. This means that a political coalition that is primarily made up of minorities and college educated whites, is going to have a tremendously difficult time winning elections at any level in about 30 States, if you think that conceding 30 states to the red team isn’t going to have a serious negative impact for the party and country, I don’t really know what to say. > [@lissener](#): > > I learned the hard way that it is literally impossible to discuss guns here at the Dope. No matter how reasoned the OP, no matter how polite the first few comments, gun fetishists will pour into the thread in what is essentially a DoS attack, the polite folks leave and take their politeness elsewhere, and pretty quickly the thread comes to look like the Orc-hatching pit from The Hobbit movie. Any topic about guns is allowed by the Mods to be shut down by a Horde of Orcs, without consequences. Are the “polite people” the ones wishing death on innocent people because someone disagrees with their political tactdics? > [@madmonk28](#): > > Sure thing, baby killer. Further ad hominems and lies. > [@naita](#): > > I too think he’s a fucknugget, asshat and blithering bawbag. Intelligent and refined posting style. > [@madmonk28](#): > > Fuck you, douche This guy is building up quite the record of quality posts. > [@omenran](#): > > This. I can’t grasp how in a hypothetical situation anyone can pick a gun over the lives of 13,500 people. Does human life matter so little to you? It’s your hypothetical, but saying you have the choice between killing thirteen thousand people and having guns- and you pick guns over their lives. As I said, a serious discussion about gun rights has no place in this thread. But to keep it very brief–I believe that all liberty create public safety risks which create some level of deaths. The simple answer is I don’t think we can live in the sort of society I want to live in if we get rid of all our liberties in the name of safety. To people that simply don’t care about gun rights, they aren’t a “liberty” they are a “fetish”, but our constitution and our history as a people enshrine the right to own and possess firearms–subject to reasonable regulation. For what it is worth, in countries like China, there is a belief that partisan politics is socially toxic, leads to corruption, misrule et cetera. I have some friends in Hong Kong who are very big supporters of the PRC government (and were very against HK’s democracy protests.) They literally just don’t believe that a political system where voters get a “say” when choosing between partisan political parties is worth what they view as the “societal costs.” I think you’d probably feel very differently, because being able to express your preferences through voting is very important to you, but not all liberties are universally shared. I fully recognize gun rights are such a liberty, but it’s silly to act like, in a world with many possible liberties, me deciding one liberty (that our Constitution and history also supports) is important enough that I am unwilling to completely erase it on public safety concerns makes me some monster. > [@wolfpup](#): > > I find myself agreeing with you a second time here. Yes, you’re being honest. So were the Nazis about how they felt about Jews. They just wanted a pure Aryan nation. But again, when the subject is guns, and you value your guns more than human lives including the lives of small children, there are consequences for such reprehensibly evil misplaced priorities. You’re a prime example of how “responsible law-abiding gun owners” are in fact the core of the gun violence problem in America. There ought to be a special place in hell for people like you. Ah, “Godwin’s Law” in effect. Pity you concede that your argument is so manifestly weak. > [@Drsunflower1](#): > > I did, actually. Still waiting for the answer. You’ll be waiting for a long time before I engage with you in any way other than to point out–you have wished death on innocent people because you were mad at someone on a message board. You are a monster. > [@Babale](#): > > Easy: you don’t give a single fuck about the lives of 13.5k people, but you give a lot of fucks about your shiny metal death dildo. There’s nothing else to it. Incorrect, I’ve said I do in fact care about the 13.5k deaths. > [@madmonk28](#): > > This is a country where we have to make sure we politely engage with the pro murder children camp. That’s actually your side in this debate, as per previous posts noting that you were on board with wishing death on people. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Just want to specifically say that this is fucked up and wrong. Sunny Daze is a valued member of the community who is always worth listening to. Not even close. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/298 "2022-05-26T17:15:54Z")
Why would I give a fuck what a baby killer has to say? Also, what the fuck is up with you racist morons and verboseness? Both you and Max\_S do it. Do you fancy yourself an intellectual? You’re not, you’re a moron. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/299 "2022-05-26T17:19:03Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > > > You what doesn’t cause people to die? Wishing. > > > > You know what does cause people to die? The willingness to trade more deaths for gun rights. > > Except that isn’t how it works at all. Fuck you, yes it is. Millions of people could wish death upon gun owners every day, and not a single death will result. Not one. But when miserable shit sacks like you accept thousands of deaths a year as the cost to own your pew pew toy, thousands of people will die every year, and continue to die, specifically because you, personally, are preventing change. You helped kill those kids, not by pulling a trigger, but by making damn sure that sick 18 year old had his choice of triggers to pull. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2022, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/300 "2022-05-26T17:25:53Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Why would I give a fuck what a baby killer has to say? > > Also, what the fuck is up with you racist morons and verboseness? Both you and Max\_S do it. Do you fancy yourself an intellectual? You’re not, you’re a moron. “A baby killer.” Another lie–and again, from a person who is fine with wishing death on innocent people This is the moral ground on which the hoi polloi in this thread stand. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045.md?page=16)