# Pit thread for Martin\_Hyde {He has been BANNED} **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 24, 2022, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045 "2022-05-24T22:52:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/621 "2022-05-31T15:45:30Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Someone else in this thread wished death on innocent people. When? Where? If you are going to complain about people twisting words, you shouldn’t be such a hypocrite about it yourself. Innocent people are going to be injured and killed by gun violence, you and your ilk do a very good job of ensuring that. It was not wished at all that anyone be harmed by gun violence, it was just wished that you would actually know one of the people who inevitably _will_ be harmed by gun violence. That you pretend not to understand that makes you a pretty pathetic troll. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/622 "2022-05-31T16:08:22Z")
“If the war is a pointless and justified one” is a pretty big caveat though, right? While it is nice to imagine a world in which all wars are unjustified and could be avoided, that is not a reality. We have wars of defense and wars where we have an obligation to defend other countries, for example. We also have peacekeeping missions etc. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Innocent people are going to be injured and killed by gun violence, you and your ilk do a very good job of ensuring that. Again, by supporting comprehensive gun control? I can only conclude by this continued attack **you do not think gun control works?** Is that correct? > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I disagree. And you’re simply giving us more evidence that you lack empathy. You can’t even begin to imagine how your words can be interpreted by other people… because you have a very limited concept that other people _even matter in the first place._ Again–you can say something over and over, that doesn’t make it true. Frankly maybe you just don’t understand that we trade lives for rights every single day, and that is why guns upset you. The rights that allow you to live your life today, are to some degree being traded for other lives all the time. If you aren’t willing to be honest about that, I would question either your critical thinking or your honesty, or both. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > How often do you hear about a conservative politician who was anti-gay, until a relative of theirs came out, and _now_ they change their views on it? Again–there’s a wide range of things that we accept even when it kills people. If a relative of mine died in a school shooting, no, I would not suddenly support a complete gun ban. I would continue to support the **comprehensive gun control** that I have always supported. ---
**Author:** ![saucywench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85e7bf/32.png) [@saucywench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saucywench)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/623 "2022-05-31T16:11:58Z")
“When? Where?” you ask. Post #105 by Drsunflower1 in one of his responses. Here are his exact words… “I hope the next gun death will be someone you know. Or by someone you know.” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/624 "2022-05-31T16:13:36Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > “If the war is a pointless and justified one” is a pretty big caveat though, right? While it is nice to imagine a world in which all wars are unjustified and could be avoided, that is not a reality. We have wars of defense and wars where we have an obligation to defend other countries, for example. We also have peacekeeping missions etc. Right. And the same way, if the option to do something exists but has a cost (for example, driving cars) we weigh the benefits of a motorized society versus the cost. What people are criticizing you for is weighing something as spurious as guns above dealing with the #1 cause of death in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/625 "2022-05-31T16:18:49Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > > “If the war is a pointless and justified one” is a pretty big caveat though, right? While it is nice to imagine a world in which all wars are unjustified and could be avoided, that is not a reality. We have wars of defense and wars where we have an obligation to defend other countries, for example. We also have peacekeeping missions etc. > > Right. And the same way, if the option to do something exists but has a cost (for example, driving cars) we weigh the benefits of a motorized society versus the cost. And you bring up cars–we regulate those for safety. I am in favor of doing that for guns–we largely have limited to no real safety laws around guns now, at least none that are comprehensive and nationwide. We also don’t enforce many of the important gun laws on our books to begin with, which until that is improved is one area we should focus on because **it requires no legislation** to improve enforcement–felons for example buy legal firearms every day in the United States. This is because they regularly just fail to complete the background check on them. Additionally, felons possessing a gun is a Federal offense, it came out in something like 2015 that the vast majority of those crimes are “under prosecuted”, which is wildly stupid. > [@](#): > > What people are criticizing you for is weighing something as spurious as guns above dealing with the #1 cause of death in the US. I don’t believe guns are even close to the #1 cause of death in the United States. Maybe I misunderstood what you’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/626 "2022-05-31T16:28:55Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Again–you can say something over and over, that doesn’t make it true Sure, why not just call me a liar for the umpteenth time. Oh, I forgot… You’re the only one who matters, and other people are just meaningless ciphers. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/627 "2022-05-31T16:29:59Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > And you bring up cars–we regulate those for safety. I am in favor of doing that for guns–we largely have limited to no real safety laws around guns now, at least none that are comprehensive and nationwide Agreed. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > We also don’t enforce many of the important gun laws on our books to begin with, which until that is improved is one area we should focus on because **it requires no legislation** to improve enforcement–felons for example buy legal firearms every day in the United States Agreed, this is a problem. Any illegal gun possession should be taken seriously. Especially heinous is the fact that, for a combination of reasons (and very possibly different reasons in different places), the police very often fail to disarm domestic abusers or people subject to restraining orders - even here in Ca: > **[Outgunned: The story of a woman, an abuser, and California’s failing gun control](https://calmatters.org/justice/2021/11/california-gun-control/)** > > California is failing to disarm abusers, despite having some of the nation’s toughest gun controls measures. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > What people are criticizing you for is weighing something as spurious as guns above dealing with the #1 cause of death in the US. > > I don’t believe guns are even close to the #1 cause of death in the United States. Maybe I misunderstood what you’re saying. That was my bad, I meant to say #1 cause of death IN CHILDREN in the US. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/628 "2022-05-31T16:40:52Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Frankly maybe you just don’t understand that we trade lives for rights every single day, and that is why guns upset you. The rights that allow you to live your life today, are to some degree being traded for other lives all the time. It is true that there’s always a tradeoff between lives and rights, but that tradeoff is especially, hugely, catastrophically unbalanced in the case of gun rights. As I [remarked in a concurrent thread:](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036/572) > [@Kimstu](#): > > […] during the last few decades the gun industry and the conservative movement have built up a really toxic “gun-rights culture” in the US, where millions of people erroneously believe that the mere fact of owning or carrying a gun makes them some kind of patriotic hero fundamentally defending the rights and safety of their fellow-countrymen by their very existence. > > This is delusional. Private gun ownership, even widespread private gun ownership, isn’t doing anything in reality to prevent government tyranny in these days of modern armies and law enforcement. But the people who believe that it does are understandably very resistant to any proposed measure that restricts their gun ownership rights in any way at all. (And of course, it’s also a very useful belief in that it rationalizes maximizing the gun owner’s own convenience and enjoyment while dismissing any negative consequences for other people.) > > I don’t think we’re really going to significantly change that culture without uprooting this outdated and heavily fetishized constitutional enshrinement of a right to gun ownership. I know that for a couple hundred years the US managed to balance our interpretation of Second Amendment rights with common-sense approaches to limiting the risks of firearms, but I think that horse has left the barn. > > I don’t think the gun industry is ever going to be satisfied again with anything less than uncompromising allegiance to the principle of unrestricted gun rights, let the chips (and corpses) fall where they may. That culture will not really change until the constitutional status of gun ownership as an inalienable right changes. We are sacrificing tens of thousands of lives annually in service to maintaining a right that is far, far less meaningful and effective than most of its supporters wishfully believe. That’s the most frustrating part. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/629 "2022-05-31T16:51:06Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > > > But you cannot conceive that when you state this, you are telling me that you’re OK with MY children being killed, with MY brothers and sisters being killed, with MY friends being killed in order that you can keep your guns. > > No–you’re actually choosing to read this into it. That’s a choice you make, it isn’t a truism. So who is it? Again, not a gotcha. It’s an honest question. Who are these people that you’re okay with dying to preserve your 2A rights? > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > No one says that a country “lacks empathy” because it, for example, sends soldiers off to war. Are you serious? You’re wrong. Period. But then you followed it up with: > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > While it is nice to imagine a world in which all wars are unjustified and could be avoided, that is not a reality. We have wars of defense and wars where we have an obligation to defend other countries, for example. We also have peacekeeping missions etc. You moved the goal posts. You changed it from [paraphrased] “No one says a country lacks empathy because it sends soldiers off to war” to “We have wars of defense and wars where we have an obligation to defend other countries, for example. We also have peacekeeping missions etc.” Well, you tried to move the goal posts. I’m quite certain you’re still incorrect that people feel a country lacks empathy in those types of war as well. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Again–you can say something over and over, that doesn’t make it true. When you keep making the same arguments over and over, you’re going to hear the same rebuttals over and over. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Frankly maybe you just don’t understand that we trade lives for rights every single day, and that is why guns upset you. And you’re actively pushing back against efforts to fix that. Maybe join the people trying to push towards a world of less violence. Exactly what rights are being protected when someone shoots up a school or mall or movie theater? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/630 "2022-05-31T16:54:18Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I see you are only interested in perpetuating intellectual dishonesty, good to note. When it comes to judging intellectual dishonesty, you have absolutely no standing here. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/631 "2022-05-31T17:01:11Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That was my bad, I meant to say #1 cause of death IN CHILDREN in the US. My bad. I saw that just the other day. Honestly, I assumed ‘guns are leading cause of death in children’ was an onion headline when I read it. [https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2201761](https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2201761) [https://www.nejm.org/na101/home/literatum/publisher/mms/journals/content/nejm/2022/nejm\_2022.386.issue-20/nejmc2201761/20220518/images/img\_xlarge/nejmc2201761\_f1.jpeg](https://www.nejm.org/na101/home/literatum/publisher/mms/journals/content/nejm/2022/nejm_2022.386.issue-20/nejmc2201761/20220518/images/img_xlarge/nejmc2201761_f1.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/632 "2022-05-31T17:05:01Z")
And where did he wish for there to be another gun death? You are being disingenuous if you think that that is asking for the death of innocents. Maybe try reading the exact words, rather than making them up. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/633 "2022-05-31T17:09:06Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Again, by supporting comprehensive gun control? I can only conclude by this continued attack **you do not think gun control works?** Is that correct? It’s easy to say that you support comprehensive gun control, but when you consider gun rights to be higher importance than innocent life, it’s hard to see what it is that you would actually end up supporting. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > If a relative of mine died in a school shooting, no, I would not suddenly support a complete gun ban. And that’s a load of straw. No one said you would have to support a complete gun ban. Just like supporting gay rights doesn’t mean you have to be gay. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I would continue to support the **comprehensive gun control** that I have always supported. So long as it doesn’t interfere with what you consider to be your gun rights. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/634 "2022-05-31T17:31:17Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Sure, why not just call me a liar for the umpteenth time. Oh, I forgot… You’re the only one who matters, and other people are just meaningless ciphers. Another post, another false representation of what I have said. > [@Kimstu](#): > > It is true that there’s always a tradeoff between lives and rights, but that tradeoff is especially, hugely, catastrophically unbalanced in the case of gun rights. As I [remarked in a concurrent thread:](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uvalde-texas-school-shooting-the-political-thread/965036/572) And that’s fine–being okay or not being okay with **where the balance is** , is a matter of opinion. Opinions may disagree, and that’s also fine. But there’s a lot of people here who are asserting that even acknowledging that tradeoff makes one a monster totally devoid of empathy, that is simply nonsense. > [@Kimstu](#): > > We are sacrificing tens of thousands of lives annually in service to maintaining a right that is far, far less meaningful and effective than most of its supporters wishfully believe. That’s the most frustrating part. There is not an objective measure of meaningful and effective, unfortunately. While I know this is one thing liberals hate–most policy disputes don’t have empirically correct answers, most involve differing preferences and choices being made. I have no issue with the fact some people weight things at differing levels, that is normal. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > When it comes to judging intellectual dishonesty, you have absolutely no standing here. I have tremendous standing, in a 500+ post thread I’ve shown nothing but honesty and integrity in the face of people wishing death on innocent people, mass scale lying, coordinated trolling from well-known forum trolls, specious allegations of racism (there have been virtually no actual posts about race in this thread), not to mention several people who have just been spamming the thread with profanities for 5 days. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > It’s easy to say that you support comprehensive gun control, but when you consider gun rights to be higher importance than innocent life, it’s hard to see what it is that you would actually end up supporting. I’ve posted what I would support, what is obvious is you didn’t read it. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > So long as it doesn’t interfere with what you consider to be your gun rights. Nope, I’ve never said that. In fact it is illogical for you to say that. What I said is I wasn’t in favor of a complete ban. Any of my gun control proposals would involve a significant curtailment of my current rights. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/635 "2022-05-31T17:34:39Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I have tremendous standing, in a 500+ post thread I’ve shown nothing but honesty and integrity in the face of people wishing death on innocent people, mass scale lying, coordinated trolling from well-known forum trolls, specious allegations of racism (there have been virtually no actual posts about race in this thread), not to mention several people who have just been spamming the thread with profanities for 5 days. I think most of us have read your acceptance speech for the Humanitarian of the Year Award by now. It’s really more that: - Few to none seem to agree with your characterizations of yourself, and - Most of us are more moved by endless dead innocents than by you repeatedly nailing yourself to the .45ACP wooden cross. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/636 "2022-05-31T17:36:25Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > - Most of us are more moved by endless dead innocents than by you repeatedly nailing yourself to the .45ACP wooden cross. Again–by supporting gun control (which I do) ? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/637 "2022-05-31T17:41:38Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Few to none seem to agree with your characterizations of yourself, But you see, _we simply don’t matter_ to someone who has no empathy towards others. He’ll never, ever get it. It’s like trying to explain chess to a squirrel. There is simply no capacity there to understand that other people are anything other than background noise. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/638 "2022-05-31T18:01:08Z")
I acknowledge, and appreciate, your position on what regulations might be reasonable and could possibly be effective. And am – again – utterly astounded at your inability to understand that what I am talking about was _your words_ … that I quoted … _right in_ [**post #635**](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde/965045/635). Again, it seems that you either cannot read them, will not read them, or are constitutionally incapable of understanding them. It really is mind boggling. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > He’ll never, ever get it. It’s like trying to explain chess to a squirrel. There is simply no capacity there to understand that other people are anything other than background noise. While I was thinking Parcheesi to a prepubescent pangolin … I definitely take your point 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/639 "2022-05-31T18:11:06Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Again, it seems that you either cannot read them, will not read them, or are constitutionally incapable of understanding them. Yeah it’s called “I’m not tacitly accepting your bullshit points.” Sorry, I’m not obligated to accept bad takes. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2022, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045/640 "2022-05-31T18:16:10Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Yeah it’s called “I’m not tacitly accepting your bullshit points.” Sorry, I’m not obligated to accept bad takes. And everyone else feels the exact same way about your bullshit points. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pit-thread-for-martin-hyde-he-has-been-banned/965045.md?page=33)